E85 fuel

[burton9010]

I found a post on here before about someone had reflashed their ecu to run on e85. I am new to buells and their tunning systems but I tuned some of my other powersports for e85 in the past so know a little about it. I was wondering if anyone knows of the tune they used to switch to e85 or if someone sells a pre tuned ecu I could just switch in.

[konarider94]

this is the thread i remember reading before. http://www.buellxb.com/Buell-XB-Forum/Buell-Firebolt-XB12-XB9/Bike-is-an-Alcoholic

you could use ecm spy to add 30% to your maps. in the thread he mentions the injectors are big enough on the 9 but not the 12. you could try though. idk what the duty cycle is at for the injectors but it could prob handle an extra 30%. e85 messes with your oxygen sensor reading though. because the fuel is oxygenated your O2 sensor needs to be calibrated differently. im not sure what options are out there for this. when i did research we programmed our own ecu so i created the lookup table to convert voltage to a lambda value. this is not a parameter you can change in the buell ecu.

[kyle_dewald]

The 9 and 12 have the same injectors

[konarider94]

right but the 9 will have a lower duty cycle because the engine is smaller. so there is more room for fueling increases.

[burton9010]

yes my bike is an xbr9. Anyone do dyno tuning out in CA that could set me up and cut out a lot of R&D?

[Loki]

Why on earth would you want to run your bike like that?

[mc4life27]

Why on earth would you want to run your bike like that?

what he said?
why?
plus where in CA are you seeing enough e85 (at the pumps that is) to make it worth while?

[redbolt04]

Why on earth would you want to run your bike like that?

e85 has a higher octane rating than even the best pump gas. If I remember correctly its around 110ish, and has a much greater resistance to pinging, allowing more aggressive timing maps, thus resulting in horsepower gains. Lots of people with turbo cars switch to e85 for that reason. There is also the "green" factor, but I doubt thats the reason the question is being asked. oh and its way cheap compared to having to use race gas.

[konarider94]

e85 wont allow for much gains in an engine designed for gasoline though. the higher octane becomes benneficial with forced induction and high compression ratios where the engine becomes knock limited. you can only advance your timing so much. you still want your power to come ATDC. Like i mentioned in that other thread usually you want your 50% burn to occur at 9 degrees ATDC, this is pretty much the optimal for any SI engine. Im pretty sure our bikes are not knock limited so advancing the timing really wont give you any gains. There is a cooling effect from the ethanol that reduces compression work. This can allow for a 2-3% increase in power.

In short e85 provides little to no gain in a stock engine and will reduce your range, however emissions are cleaner if that concerns you. It does hurt fuel economy.

edit:not to mention the fact that e85 has a slightly higher burn rate, one more reason i would advise against advancing the timing

[RT Performance]

Seems like xb's have some rubber hoses at the fuel pump?
That would likely need a upgrade
Would be great for a drag bike but the small tank capacity the gas light comes on about 12O now reduced by 30% that like 75 miles .
Would be awsome to turbo a high compression engine though

[xtremelow]

e85 has an octane rating of 105.

Some of the down sides are the fuel economy, lack of availability in some places, and possible drying of rubber hoses and 0-rings.

I have run a few tanks through my bike and never noticed any difference, a good friend of mine who tunes high performance cars told me if running e85 it is basically a waste of money unless you re-tune the bike. Since so much more fuel is needed to have any type of gain a re-tune is the only way to see how much fuel is needed to be added.

I also asked about the rubber hoses and 0-rings, he commented something to the fact that unless it is just sitting around (stored for the winter) you dont have anything to really worry about. He has a 2003 s-10 with an lm7 supercharged, he has some none flex fuel components and has been running e85 for 2 years and not one issue. He is running 8lbs of boost and in the neighborhood of 550rwhp. So to the fact of drying fuel lines and 0-rings that has always been up for conversation.

But e85 is unstable to the fact that it does retain water and could in turn cause corrosion in the system from larger amounts of water over what gasoline has. This is very important when storing a vehicle since the water will separate from the e85, causing an even faster corrosion effect.

In the end e85 can produce the same power as a higher octane but it requires more fuel and proper tuning. The possibilities of down sides to e85 have never really been proven just suspected do to the nature of alcohol side effects.

oh if some wonder what the Ethanol is possible of this is a friends drag car I posted else where running e98 at 20lbs of boost 7,000 RPM 1100 HP to the rear tires[up]
B9DHIy163oM
6hDnoPOvi_c

[rrh481]

The 9 and 12 have the same injectors


Actually the 9 and 12 have different injectors. I had to get new injectors for my 08 xb12 throttle body due to the injectors for the 12 are shorter than the 9's.

[burton9010]

I have 6 stations within 20 mins of me in CA. I live in Sacramento and propel fuel company has expanded in this area in the last 3-4 years and I belive they are trying to expand all over CA. Here is $2.29 compaired to the $3.99 and thats just for 87 octane. Its not really the cost difference of why I like to run it, its the fact that its 105 octane, burns about 20 degrees cooler then gas, and also is american made. I have built servel high HP jet ski's that I have setup on E85 and that would be the worse condition for e85 to soak up water. I do a little extra work to them to prevent damage to them but have not had any problems and have been running that way for a few years.
I have herd all the aurguments of how it will kill your fuel system and you should never run it and all that stuff. I have run it in just about everything I own and all 4 of my roomates stuff. Even if there cars are not "flex fuel" I just mix it 50-75% e85 and put the other 25% of regular gas and never have a probelm. I have done this from a 1997 chevy s10 to a 2007 vw jetta and I have done this for the last 4-5 years and have had zero problems out of them so the people that try to tell me I am dumb and it will kill all my stuff I have done this for a few years now in real world testing and have found this to not be true.
Anyways I am trying to get to know this buell programing so I can get my bike tuned on e85.

[burton9010]

I ment $3.29 compaired to $3.99

[xtremelow]

Gas here is $3.65 and e85 $2.99, I seen the $2.29 and was like WTF why is it so expensive in MI. I only have 1 pump that is about 9mi from me then another 2 but they are 20mi or so out.

I live 2 blocks from one gas station, wish like hell they had e85. Not sure if it just takes different style tanks or what but the 3 that do carrybit are all fairly new gas stations.

[burton9010]

Yea its different state to state for laws about tank specs and such and of all states CA seems to have some dumb and strick laws about bio fuels. I belive these laws where put into place years ago but just never got changed but before the company propel came here there where less then a 15 pumps in the whole state. Not sure why they dont just make it so that every new gas station that is built from now on or if an old one fails a tank test and needs to be redone should by law put in an E85 pump.
Its also the car companys as it is $100 or less for american car makers to make there cars and trucks flex fuel. Why is not every car that is rolling off the line flex fuel? I understand that the ethonal and E85 set we have in our country right now is not 100% efficient but the research and money goes where the demand is. Right now they just take the same feed corn that is used for everything and use just the corn starch from the kernel and the rest of the protien and minerals can still be used for feed or food. There is research now that they are making hybrid corn that grows with more sugar content that would be grown and produce much more ethonal per yeild. There is also Algae ethonal that is very new but up coming but they put these algae fields out in the middle of the desert of nevada they produce a ton of ethanol and produce it very quickly. All these things are out there and they are all here in the american economy.
I am not green tree huger or nothing like that but if there is a product that is out there and is made in america that I feel is a better fuel and cleaner anyways I am going to use it. If everyone in the country pumped every e85 pump dry tomorrow I am sure you would be seeing a lot more E85 pump popping up and a lot more ethonal plants being built. Not saying there isnt not because just since the numbers since 2004 or so ethonal industry is for sure growing.
Sorry to get off topic and go on my rampage but I just have seen it a dozen times now where I ask a question on a forum about E85 and everyone right away starts talking about how that fuel is crap.