Pinging

Hello, long time no post
Well, this time is a pinging problem, I have a high mile engine (+67000) 2008 xb9
My questions are, what are the causes for this, I use low grade fuel (95) for some time now (cheaper, times are very hard in my country), this occurs on very hot weather, for example during the morning when I go to work I can give throttle as much as I want and have no pinging, but during the afternoon I must be extremely gentle with the throttle!
I’ve checked the timing and it is spot on, new plugs (10r12a), one thing I notice is some smell of unburned gasoline and high AFV value 117, is this normal for a sea level height, she’s always run this value for as long as I can remember. I run with race map, K&N air filter and a slightly modify stock exhaust.
Any info is much appreciated
Thanks

Sure its a ping? Could be mechanical? Faulty temp sensor maybe.

Increase the AFV to 125, ride it hard when hot. Did the "pinging" lessen or the same?

Correction, bike's a 2005 model
OK I'll truy it and let you know
what do you mean by mechanical? and what are the symptoms for a faulty temp sensor?

Symptons run far and wide. Only in extreme cases would a temp sensor be obvious. But if you have ecmspy check the temp reading, does it look reasonable? Or really hot really hot?

I put the race map timing tables in my Uky and it pinged. When I put the stock timing back in it doesn't ping. Ymmv

I am not very knowledgeable yet on the tuning via computer,, but i have these issues on my sportsters, How accurate is the fuel testing where you are? is it truly the octane as rated? is there alcohol added to the fuel?

In my area,,,,they loved to "Oxygenate" the fuel with alcohol in the belief it helps with emissions, they keep increasing the amount of it as well, Alcohol in the fuel causes a LOT of problems,

I buy the highest rated fuel i can get in my bikes, as some are vintage and run high compression from the good old days when gasoline was truly gasoline, not this blended crap we have today, But i ride most every day, and on the way home late at night,, or very early mornings they run so sweet, that cool air, but in the afternoons in the heat and heavy traffic i get pinging, and have to ride very carefully to avoid it, dont lug it, try not to let idle excessively, and careful on acceleration. I fattened up the jetting a little, but im hesitant to back off the timing.

Your computer system SHOULD compensate to some degree (the wonders of technology) so i would look carefully at sensors and the tune as suggested above because the bike SHOULD retune for those conditions.

So my point is, check your systems, but check your fuel as well. Have you ever tried testing your fuel? I can explain how to check for volume of alcohol easily. (some vendors add more on their own, quite the scam, )

I would like to know how to check for alcohol!

Simple really. Get 2 graduated cylinders, the chemical-lab supply type ones are nice, but you can use most anything, tall and thin dia is best. If not marked with graduations or lines, then use a ruler and carefully mark them by the 1/8th inches or MM or whatever, the idea is a measureable amount of consistent lines on the container.

You need 2 identical ones, now, it works regardless but for this example ill use CC's

Fill the first container to 200cc with your fuel you want to test, allow it to settle, look for debris, dirt, fuzzys, and if theres water, it will settle to the bottom, Alcohol will float to the top, If the fuel in the space of an hour separates substantially, its SHIT FUEL,,,, fill the second container Now fill the second container UP to the 100cc mark, then add another 25cc of ethylene glycol (Antifreeze) now measure and watch. the alcohol in the fuel (if any) will seperate and you can, measure based on the graduations the percentage. Simple math calculating percentages If its advertised as 10% and you measure 15% by volume, then you have issues.

if its easier,, fill instead to the 200cc mark and you should be able to tell.

dpends on your location, SOME states closely regulate fuel vendors and in some locations the fuel pumps are required and have to be certified to be accurate. I know of a gas station in Utah where a friend managed to pump 18 gallons into a 15 gallon fuel tank, hmmmm whats up with that?

Some states or locations also regulate contents of fuels. if they are advertising 10% ethanol by content and pumping 15% thats massive fraud, as i dont know about other locations but regular is between $3.65 and $3.85 per gallon locally, alcohol costs like $0.09 cents a gallon and with a 2500 gallon tank for the station per fuel type, thats massive fraud.

also depends on tanks, but a certain amount of water is acceptable as well, But it doesnt burn so well.

[up]
Thats awesome knowledge to have

It also depends on vehicle type,,, When theres a LOT of water and alcohol in the fuel (they go hand in hand) some cars and vehicles digest it without much effect/affect. Some,,, its VERY noticable.

On several of my old chevy hot rods with big camshafts, any hint of contamination and they run like shit,,, I have to be very selective with fuels and where i get them, And when bit by bad fuel i have to add fuel treatments or drain.

My wifes modern 2004 toyota will burn it without complaint, and it doesnt run that well on it, but you really dont notice.

I have read its the cams thats critical. a big lumpy camshaft will have a hard time with shitty fuel, Buells run a pretty aggressive Cam stock, a Stock Buell cam is WAY hotter than a stock Sportster cam, Im not going to look up the numbers and specs here, But if you install Buell cams in a sportster its quite the hotrod if dialed in right.
the stock Sportster cam is aggressive by normal passenger car specs,.

So the point is,,,,,,,, shit fuel in our bikes is pretty noticeable,

So want to hear some irony? In Oregon, theres alcohol added to the fuels in an misguided effort to improve air quality and its blended based on the season, Now, there ARE alcohol free stations if you know where to look.
(Someone told me theres a website too) And I dont know about all the stations, but one locally told me and my FIL recently the state of Oregon uses them for their vehicles and instructs employees to only use the alcohol free stuff in Govt vehicles and equipment.

the smaller the jets or orifices the more problems you have, chain saws, line trimmers, mowers, etc all have a LOT of problems with the "Oxygeneted " fuels,,,

so wait, let me understand this,,,,,, The state Govt recognizes its harmful and damages vehicles as well as expensive maintenance? But its a GOOD thing for the rest of us? WTF? [confused]

Not long ago, the "Horse Back street choppers" magazine ran some tests and soaked parts in jars of oxygenated fuel, the damages were huge! corrosion, sludge, and seperation all very apparent, Go ahead,, pump it into our vehicles.

Have no idea what type of fuel I'm feeding my buell, but for sure it’s a very shity one, as it is the most inexpensive one I can find, I know it’s wrong but can’t pay the prices they ask for it.
Must do that test!!!
It must be the quality of the fuel, todays temperature dropped abruptly, so no pinging
The ecmSPY shows no big differences on the engine temperature, so I’m assuming its ok, but then again, the O2 sensor gave no trouble cods and was bad!!! The engine temperature sensor is as old as the bike, 8 years, better start thinking in replacing it, no?
I’m very gentle on the throttle when it starts to happen but can’t prevented it
I used to read that magazine, it was nice, but it was all the same, get tired of it. But excellent quality, the beast one I came across for some time now

I dont know where you are,,,, South America? But i feel your pain, I know a lot of people who travel worldwide on bikes, (See ADV rider website) and I hear from many of them about Fuel issues. When some are in our area many of us like to buy them a beer or lend a hand, We have a 2 wheeled tuesdays events where many of these people show up. Its part of the culture, that you travel the world and no matter where you go you can reach out to others for a place to stay, or resources to get repairs or your tires changed, new chain, etc..

But I lived overseas for 4 years, some of the time in Asia, but mostly Europe and the middle east. I had lots of problems with fuel in some of those countrys. I ran extra fuel filters and had to clean them a LOT, lots of fuel contamination as well. Plus,,,,,,, this was some time ago, I came home in 1990. but several of us had our american cars shipped over, and several people i knew were running performance cars, All of us had issues with detonation and pinging from the fuel qualitys. Several of us bought and fiddled with water/alcohol injection.

When dialed in right,,,,, it works quite well. this is different than water and alcohol IN your fuel, this was an injector system that ran ON your carb (4 barrell Holley in my case) and under heavy load, accelleration or certain engine conditions (Based on vacuum and Throttle postion and ign advance) it would spray a fine mist into the inlets. this did REALLY well on eliminating fuel issue related knock and ping.
It cools the intake charge and helps. Required a LOT of fiddling to get right. but the other option was to go thru our motors and detune, (Smaller cams) and reduce compression.

Your Buell has very lumpy cams (overlap) as well as pretty high compression, you have 2 choices, better fuel or detune your motor with milder cams and lowered compression.

If you cannot change your fuel situation, you might,,,, sadly [mad] consider the reality that in order to live long and prosper, the motor might need to step it down a notch or 2.

If you are a very clever lad,, you might be able to engineer in a system like what i used to use, but that wont be easy on a fly by wire bike like a modern Buell.

I'm in Europe, Portugal, to be more precise
I'm not that clever.
The thing is, I ride my buell to work all year round and I spend a lot of Money on fuel, one eight of my income goes to fuel alone, must try the cheap 98 octane, if it continues I’ll go for the expensive ones and see what happens
Thanks for the help [up]

I never made it to Portugal, would have liked too. Spain a lot, a bit of Italy, Greece, and I lived IN Turkey, I did deployments all over, Lots of time in Germany.

When I was there,,,, The US economy wasnt doing well globaly, so Ronald Reagan devalued the US Currency...Im not interested in a debate about politics, but the end result was Young GIs like me went from living well on our Paltry salarys to really hurting, I cant remember exactly but i think we went from 8 German marks to the dollar to 3.25. Lots of GIs had financed expensive German cars on the German bank market and saw their payments go way up, Nothing like having a chick magnet Porsche and leather interior and you cant afford to take out any
Fraulein's let alone drive the damn things. Fuel prices were also quite high. I went all over Europe,, and where i spent most of my time in Turkey wasnt as bad as elsewhere...

I had a 1963 Nova SS with a 327 ci V8 out of a 68 Corvette, went like stink, very fast, and nobody knew what it was..... (not a common car in Europe) It was fun, but very expensive to drive. On a Buell,,,,, its not so easy to check the fuel filters, I used to run 2 inline filters plus a bronze mesh one inside the carb, I changed them frequently and was shocked how dirty the fuels were. Probably some improvement since then, but still.

On the Buell, you might be able to fatten up the curve a bit for certain times of the year, Look into a wideband tune with the better O2 sensor,. also read up on testing of fuels,,, im not sure the octane rating is the same,
there are 2 types of octane ratings here in the US,. One is Research octane, and i forget the other, but if you read up on it, theres reasons why they are different and how they are measured.

You MIGHT be able to run some octane booster supplements or other fuel additives during the hotter parts of the year.

My personal hero, and worth a read is ANYTHING by the noted engineer and shade tree mechanic...
Smokey Yunick. I used to subscribe to Circle Track Magazine just to read his monthly articles and columns,. He has written extensively about fuels science and practical applications. He has several books out as well,. anyone reading them will end up much smarter, i can promise you. It changes your outlook at looking at mechanics and engineering. Plus his techniques for getting an edge in racing are legendary. Everything he has written has practical applications no matter if its a car, plane, motorcycle or boat.

With those kinds of miles, it IS possible you have some carbon build-up in the combustion chambers. This could present several different issues....from actually increasing the mechanical compression ratio (Carbon takes up volume in the chamber, therefore increasing the compression ratio), to actually causing 'preignition', which is different somewhat from 'detonation' . (although the resuly is essentially the same....uncontrolled combustion). Preignition results from the carbon, (or in some instances, 'sharp' edges on pistons/chambers...but that isn't the case here) in the chambers staying hot enough to ignite the next fuel charge entering the chamber BEFORE the plug lights it off. This PART of the reason a lot of performance and race engines run 'colder' plugs. Seeing as the fuel is of fairlypoor quality, it could give you quite a bit of carbon in the chambers. If it's possible for you, get some Chevron Techron or equivalant type product and give it a try for a bunch of fill-ups of fuel. It could help. Just a thought......

You must get some time to visit Portugal, you will be positively surprised!
Did a quick look to Smokey Yunick, and it seems he was somewhat genius, must find some time to read some of his work
If this is an indication of something, I bet the chambers aren’t much better…Carbon removed from the intake manifold

will those products do a good clean on the chambers?, if so that is something I must try!!!

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![confused][confused][confused][confused][confused]

Thats a LOT!!!!!!!! Umm, jeez thats scary. I have seen some cases where bits of carbon broke off and scarred up the cylinders, damaged rings, and required an overbore when the pieces got wedged in between the pistons and cylinder walls. Last year had this happen on a 1968 Triumph, had to overbore the cylinder.

On vintage bikes back in the day, carbon build up was common, so the service required was called a
"De-Coke" and required stripping the top end and cleaning cyl head combustion and intake and exhaust ports as well as valves, piston tops etc,, I still have same vintage gasket sets that are called "De-Coke Kits" With allegedly better oils today, and allegedly improved fuels, its rare this is required and largely unheard of by modern vehicle owners.

Im afraid you should consider this, a bit of work and expense, but your best option. Not great news for your primary vehicle tho....

Another option,,,,,,,, which sounds scary. but isnt as bad as it sounds is.. a water flush. this is done with the engine up to temp, and while running at around 2500 rpm you pour small amounts of water into the intake,, NOT a lot at a time (or hydraulic lock will occur and damage) but the thermal shock will loosen carbon, and it will just blow it out the pipes. each time you blip the throttle, and let the motor recover,,,,, then again,

afterwards take it for a ride,, then change the oil and filter.

there are many miracles in a bottle such as Chevron Techron, Techron is one of the few that actually works, but not if you already have THAT MUCH carbon built up. I use Techron frequently,, Here in the US, such as Costco.. watch out for the diluted discount techron. Marketed often in 2 packs for the same price as the regular techron. Use twice as much or buy the regular stuff. The regular stuff retails between $7.00 to 13 dollars depending on source. Its a rare case of more is better. so add a WHOLE bottle to your fuel. run it on the freeway. It will degum injectors, clean valves and the combustion chambers.

I have a friend who teaches all the west coast EFI service techs for Nissan training... And he instructs them when trouble shooting EFI issues to run some concentrated Techron thru and run it hard, THEN test. often its just clogged injectors, He also recomends cleaning the sensors MAP and MAF in the intakes first with a suitable spray cleaner.

But in your case,, you have severe carbon issues, and im guessing its from the fuel.

Best wishs,,,,,,, I dont think you have any easy options.

But in your case,, you have severe carbon issues, and im guessing its from the fuel.
Best wishs,,,,,,, I dont think you have any easy options.

Click to expand...

[sad]
Let's get the fingernails dirty
Thanks for the info guys [up]