Timing Map Help / Input - 2009 XB9

[s0dhi]

Folks, I have been reviewing the 2007 Race Timing and comparing it with my 2009 Stock timing. I thought I'd share my comparison to get your input.

FRONT:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28846604/Buell/20140530_Timing_Front.PNG

REAR:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28846604/Buell/20140530_Timing_Rear.PNG

The blue maps are 2007 Race.
The orange maps are 2009 Stock.
The green maps are maximum timing values taken from both and combined in one map. The red cells show values that came form the race map.
The grey map shows the cell differences between blue and orange maps, green cells coming from stock and red cells coming from race.

What I found surprising was that the stock map seems to run more timing advance (generally) than the race map. The race map only seems to run (moderately) more timing in the 2000-3000 rpm range at light load.

I'm planning on running the maxed out map (green). Does anyone have any comment or concerns regarding running the maxed out timing map before I flash it?

[Negative]

Idk if it's because I'm on my Mil computer or what .... But I can't see the pics ...

[s0dhi]

@Negative, does this work?

http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/718_20140530143830_L.jpg

http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/718_20140530143754_L.jpg

[Negative]

Yea man ... the first set worked ... Our military LAN filters cut out some stuff that it deems "hazardous" .... don't ask me how it figures that stuff out, because even I have absolutely no idea .... but ..... OPSEC .... meh ...

On topic: That race map is just like all the other ones I've seen ... more aggressive on the advance ... Have you tried both yet? ... I've tried the stock and race map for my 03 and found that the race map seems to work better with my current setup ... the stock actually had a rougher running in certain rpm's (typically in the 2k-2.5k and 4k+ range)

[s0dhi]

@Negative

I'm currently running the blended timing map. The stock BUEZD map was generally more aggressive than the 2007 race, except in the mid range. So, I took the max value for each cell, since the the numbers weren't too crazy. This map seems to work very well so far. I've just started to dig into tuning but the bike feels more eager than before.

[Negative]

Excellent!! ... I've been debating on trying to peruse through the different maps for the DDFI 2 bikes and look into each revision of the timing ... see which version works best/better ... Your post above just helps with that decision ...

[s0dhi]

@Negative

Yeah, I think there is some value in going over the various maps out there. My reasoning for maxing each cell was that the race and stock timing maps are probably both delivered with reasonably safe maps. I was surprised to see that my stock timing was more aggressive than race pretty much everywhere except for the 2000 rpm column and 3000 at low light load.

If you want the Excel sheet I'm using you're welcome to it: Click Me (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/28846604/Buell/Race%20Map%20Interpolation.xlsx)

[Negative]

Thank you !! ... that's a very welcome addition to my tuning software collection .... rep points for you good sir !! ... [up][up][up][up]

[s0dhi]

Thanks, @Negative.

FYI, I took the bike out yesterday and that low load timing at 2000/3000 didn't feel right while cruising. There was surging and hesitation there. I've decided to roll back to factory timing for the moment.

[lawdog]

Timing is not something we can generally play around with and achieve great results without a load dyno, hours of time, and patience. I played around with my timing maps several years ago and never really made any progress. Ideally I would need to throw the bike on a dyno and hold it in each cell while playing around with the timing until I achieved best results. Too expensive for the little benefit I would receive. There is a lot of research that goes into the timing such as hp/tq, emissions, detonation, etc. I run the factory timing map for my 2009 which has given me the best results verse other race maps, modified maps, hybrid maps, I have tried and tinkered with. Biggest benefit I see is using a wideband and tuning the fuel maps. Gets rid of all the hesitation, decel popping, flat spots, heat, etc.

[s0dhi]

@lawdog

Great info. I've reverted back to factory timing and you're right, the cost of further tuning timing on a dyno may not be worth it for minimal results.

When you used the wideband for tuning, did you do both cylinders simultaneously or swap a single sensor back and forth? On that note, are the front and rear cyclinders significantly different in their requirements? I see a lot of older threads mention copying the rear map to the front and bumping up the fuelling, but this assumes that both cylinders need the same (similar) fuel at the same load and rpm. Seems counter intuitive to me.

[theMelvster6]

On the timing: it's general consensus that to tune timing properly it really needs dyno time as lawdog stated. Most people just leave it alone and tune the fuel maps.

On the fuel maps: there are many theories on how to tune rear vs front cylinders. Some folks tune the rear cylinder and then copy the map to the front and add 2 across the map. The best way in my opinion is start with a stable map and tune each cylinder separately with a wideband o2. A few Datalog runs and you will have a pretty danm good map.

[s0dhi]

What does it take to get a bung put in the front cylinder? Do folks put in 2 bungs by the collector? Is it better just to get a new header rather than mod the XB9 one?

[lawdog]

Test fit an o2 sensor on the front header where it fits the best. Mark the spot, remove the headers, have a welder weld a bung on, coat the headers, and mount back on.

Turn off closed loop, set AFR to 100, adjust maps to compensate for whatever AFR your currently running.

Mount wideband in one header, plug the other, tune a cyl and make equal proportional adjustments to the other cyl. Swap o2 and tune other cyl. Then go back and do a final check on each one cyl one more time. When tuning you will get to the point you are chasing weather conditions with very small corrections.

Make sure your closed loop areas are 14.7 AFR and turn closed loop back on or run open loop with AFR of your choice.

[theMelvster6]

Stainless Bungs can be found easy. When I get mine back together I'm going to weld two bungs (one in each primary) right above the collector for easy access. It's really pretty easy job if you have a welder buddy or you can weld yourself. I believe the xb headers are 304 stainless.

[s0dhi]

@lawdog and @theMelvster6 thanks for your input.

Sounds like a project for next winter. Having said that, do you think there is value doing some narrow band tuning right now?

[theMelvster6]

with a narrowband o2, you can only tune closed loop effectively since it is trying to target 14.7 afr. A narrowband is basically a switch...either too lean or too rich, it can only target 14.7.