`05 XB12R stall at stop/idle - intermittent

[Bueller77]

Looking for any help with an intermittent stall. Has happened 3 or 4 times, this time I caught it in a data log. Was stopped at a light and bike idling after getting off the highway, started to roll on throttle to leave the intersection and bike died, no other rider input (ie electrical short from turning the handlebars, no throttle blipping etc.) Started back up without issue. (similar scenario each time it has happened). No stored codes or CEL. I have a good log for this ride but am not exactly sure where to start analyzing. The bike has 10,500 miles on it (500 are mine). I`m not sure what other info to provide... BUEIB ECM, K&N filter, GPR reverse exhaust, has had a tune burned by the PO (no info on this but I can reach out and try to find out where it came from), AFV has been solid at 103.9, I haven`t touched anything from the way I got it. It seems to run rich to me, only based on my sense of smell and experience.

If I`m forgetting something to provide enough info for some guidance I apologize.

I`ve also searched the forums looking for something similar and haven`t found anything yet.

 

[Barrett]

Looking for any help with an intermittent stall. Has happened 3 or 4 times, this time I caught it in a data log. Was stopped at a light and bike idling after getting off the highway, started to roll on throttle to leave the intersection and bike died, no other rider input (ie electrical short from turning the handlebars, no throttle blipping etc.) Started back up without issue. (similar scenario each time it has happened). No stored codes or CEL. I have a good log for this ride but am not exactly sure where to start analyzing. The bike has 10,500 miles on it (500 are mine). I`m not sure what other info to provide... BUEIB ECM, K&N filter, GPR reverse exhaust, has had a tune burned by the PO (no info on this but I can reach out and try to find out where it came from), AFV has been solid at 103.9, I haven`t touched anything from the way I got it. It seems to run rich to me, only based on my sense of smell and experience.

If I`m forgetting something to provide enough info for some guidance I apologize.

I`ve also searched the forums looking for something similar and haven`t found anything yet.

It seems to run rich to me, only based on my sense of smell and experience.

This along with warm engine idle stalling almost always associated with corrupted tuning file having been installed......

Possibilities for 2005 model year:
1-"Corrupted tune" as in faulty "race map" installed by PO. Open it and compare the idle region cells to known good 04-07 XB12 region to see if that's where the problem lies.
2-Access ECM....temporarily turn off "closed loop idle"...now see if the problem subsides. This will verify if the O2 sensor is causing the problem and not dumping fault code #13 into historicals.
3-Do a correct TPS reset at room temp to assure it's correctly in synch with the ECM. Warm curb idle speed should be manually set to 1050-1100RPM which insures consistent no-stall idling both cold and warm.
4-Airbox base plate rubber air horn properly connected to top of throttle body unit.

 

[Bueller77]

Thanks Barrett.

1- I can compare to a couple that Cooter passed along to me and see if there are any differences
2- I can try this for sure, the O2 sensor seemed very "active" in my log, I'm not familiar with how active is normal tbh
3- I have done this and it definitely helped with my cold start and warm idle
4- I had the airbox open to check the filter and will double check that everything seated properly when I put it back together, the stalling has happened before and after I opened the airbox.

I will post back with my findings....thanks!

 

[Barrett]

Yes Sir my pleasure. This keyboard trouble-shooting is always a crap shoot but when I read of Adjusted Fuel Values within spec...appearance of overly rich fuel load...stalling and rideability issues...lack of any historical fault codes...I always think installed "maps" with corrupted files.
Another confirmation would be to install the known good stock 2004-2007 "12" onto your ECM and see if problem resolved.

 

[Bueller77]

So this is what I get when I compare the rear fuel maps.... Top left = Download from Buellmods (stated as stock), Top right = Stock XB12 (provided to me from Cooter), Bottom left = retrieved from my ECM yesterday, Bottom right = EBR Stock XB12 (provided to me from Cooter)

I see similarities....and differences between them all which leaves me still not sure which one could be an OEM "virgin" map....




And my front maps...

 

[Barrett]

Way beyond my pay-grade. Consult with the people who provided these to you for their educated guesses.
As mentioned before, either install an original factory known good stock ECM complete map.....or plug in a known good 04-07 12 model ECM and see if problems resolved.

I have all the new 04-07 9 and 12 stock factory maps stored on my shop computer but possessing minimal computer skills...no idea how to copy them and send anywhere.

 

[Cooter]

I'm with Barrett (as usual). If you want a known starting point, get an ECM from IDS. I don't mess with ECMSpy, and I don't build tunes from scratch. I'll leave that to a professional tuner, with a dyno.

If you are convinced it is a tune issue, you need to start from a known point, which I'm afraid is impossible in the 'free tunes' world. If you want to try and fix the bike with a tune just install them all one at a time and see what happens. They are free to get and free to change, so why not.

But why are you focused on changing the tune? It could be all sorts of things causing that issue, including bad sensor inputs.

 

[Cooter]

I have all the new 04-07 9 and 12 stock factory maps stored on my shop computer but possessing minimal computer skills...no idea how to copy them and send anywhere.

Should be exactly as easy as sending any other file via e-mail. Hit the paper clip button and pick the file. Just like sending a picture to a friend

Because the free tune arena is so clogged with unknown files from unknown original sources, everyones just guessing. Thats all they can do. Your source (HD) would absolutely be a gold-mine for people wanting a known file.

What is the file type (the three letters after the dot, like .xpr)? That will tell you a lot about what they are.

If they are the original updates from HD, there will only be 2 of them and also be the whole firmware file (BUE2D) which would be awesome to be able to update all these old firmware types.

 

[Barrett]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Shaughn: I'm old. You know that. LOL. I possess minimal computer skills. When you start mentioning xpr and firmware I'm immediately lost. I have an ancient bench mounted POS shop computer running old Windows program. It has EcmSpy installed. Over the past decade I have removed ECM's from new 03-07 XB9's and assorted XB12's to include SX....S....R...X...XT...Ss models...and downloaded the ECM content onto files stored in the computer. The EEprom content, if you will, is what I'm trying to describe. Have perhaps 15 of these things saved. I also have a new 04-07 XB12 Buell race-only ECM on hand and a new 04-07 Buell XB12 IDS ECM as well if this Canuck would like to try one.

 

[Cooter]

You and me both, brother.

Had a young girl come in the shop yesterday wearing a vintage Anthrax concert shirt from Irvine Meadows, CA the late 80's (MTV, Headbangers Ball). I was at that concert. Her parents probably hadn't even met yet :disturbed:


Let's call ourselves 'vintage' from now on. It sounds better than antique

 

[Bueller77]

Thank you both Barrett and Cooter.

I'm not convinced it's only a tune issue, or a tune issue at all, I just know I'm not working with an OEM tune from the PO. Per my OP I'm looking for any advice/guidance on where I should be looking, I did a good log for this ride when it happened so I can see what all sensors were doing, just not sure which ones I should be concentrating on.

I really appreciate all the help I can get as I'm learning this bike myself.

Barrett thank you for the ECM offer, I'll PM you about it.

 

[pdksh]

i have a 07 XB12R with the RACE tune, it would idle like PooP! and stall when idling. Checked the AFV, it was 105%, I reset the AFV to 100% and did a TPS reset. It immediately started to idle smooth at 1000rpm.
I read somewhere (probably twin motorcycles) that the degree for your TPS sensor should be between 4 and 6 degrees at 1000rpm (or something like that) and if your TPS sensor at idle is outside of that range there could be a problem.

I have had two throttle shafts split/crack/break on various buells, you may want to examine your throttle body butterfly shaft

just my 2 cents.

 

[Bueller77]

i have a 07 XB12R with the RACE tune, it would idle like PooP! and stall when idling. Checked the AFV, it was 105%, I reset the AFV to 100% and did a TPS reset. It immediately started to idle smooth at 1000rpm.
I read somewhere (probably twin motorcycles) that the degree for your TPS sensor should be between 4 and 6 degrees at 1000rpm (or something like that) and if your TPS sensor at idle is outside of that range there could be a problem.

I have had two throttle shafts split/crack/break on various buells, you may want to examine your throttle body butterfly shaft

just my 2 cents.

Thanks pdksh, I did address the TPS reset/idle speed as it was a bit low when I got the bike. I did the whole reset procedure and have a solid cold/warm idle @ 1050+/- and my degree is 5.1 - 5.3

 

[Bueller77]

Ok so today I reset my AFV to 100 for ****s and giggles and went out for a good ride. When I got back it’s now at 105.3. Was 103.9 since I got the bike about 5 or 6 hundred miles ago. It idled like **** on cold start up but warm was solid. So correct me if Im wrong but the way I understand it is an increase in AFV is the bike essentially giving the engine more fuel as it’s detecting a lean condition, so would unmetered air getting in (possibly intake seals) be a cause for this? And also be a factor in my random stalls? My thoughts are my next step is going to test for intake seal leaks as it seems to be common from the threads and although there’s only 10,000 miles on the bike it is 18yrs old and I have to assume they are original…..

My goal is to try and diagnose as much as I can so I can do all the PM’s/maintenance over winter downtime. Really enjoying riding this bike!

If I’m missing something or should be looking at another sensor etc. any input is welcome…….cheers and thanks for the knowledge and guidance passed on to me

 

[Barrett]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ YES on all fronts.

1-The Adjusted Fuel numerical value of 105.3 shows that the ECM is increasing the pulse-width of both injectors to add more fuel to the combustion mixture as the ECM is seeing values indicating a "lean" run condition.
2-Test the intake manifold for air leaks where it attaches to both F&R cylinders. One seal per attachment point. Test with either carb cleaner spray bomb and red straw.....or UNLIT propane torch gas. Test should be performed outside with motor at or near operating temp.
3-Don't get caught up in numbers jibberish. The correct TPS value setting ENGINE OFF AT ROOM TEMP is 5.1-5.5 Having done 100 or more I've found 5.1 seems to work best but NOT critical. Just set it and leave it alone from that point.
4-You mentioned winter maintenance. Consider pulling the fuel pump and performing fuel service over the winter. I'm now seeing these failing at alarming rates and when they do they cause a myriad of performance and rideability problems to include low speed stalling...throttle hesitation...prolonged cold and warm start-to-crank times...climbing AFV numbers.

 

[Bueller77]

Thanks Barrett....I never thought of that angle but it makes complete sense! It might not be that the bike is seeing lean from getting too much air and adding fuel, but not enough fuel pressure is essentially leaning it out due to not getting enough fuel through the injectors....or both lol!!

As soon as I have a chance to test the intake seals and fuel pressure I'll let you know what I find....cheers!

Do you feel a static fuel pressure test will suffice or should I tee a gauge port in and monitor under real riding/running/load conditions?

 

[Barrett]

My pleasure. New fuel pump and regulator factory set for 51PSI at the pump outlet port. Static test is fine and you can use a simple pressure gauge accessed to the pump outlet port by whatever method you conjure or by a pressure testing kit from a few online outfits. If you do end up pulling the pump for servicing/rebuilding...I keep every single factory OEM pump part in stock her