ignition control module vs ignition sensor? 07 xb12r

[evilokc]

im troubleshooting an intermittent no spark issue. I'm using a pdf ( bullmods.com) of the manual and it says it could be a bad ignition module or a bad ignition sensor. it doesn't show me the location of these parts. when i search ignition module and ignition sensor it shows me what looks like the cps. the manual speaks as if these are two separate parts. i will continue searching but if anyone can give me the location of these parts i would appreciate the help. as of now im "assuming" the manual is calling the cam position sensor an ignition sensor. so that answers half the question.

SOLVED- the issue turned out to be the voltahe reulator. i swapped in a new one from roadstercycles and the bike is running great. im not getting to do much riding though due to n accident. but im happy that the buell is there waiting to rage as soon as im able.

 

[Barrett]

Ignition module and ignition sensor as per 03-07 Service Manuals, are in fact the same component. The folks at Harley-Davidson Publications/Documents division published all the XB-XL-XR manuals, so they tend to intertwine nomenclature. It is the component located behind the cover plate on the nose end of the cam cover. It simply signals the ECM as to what position the crankshaft is in relative to required ignition parameters.

Intermittent loss-of-spark causes:
Failing coil---------most common
Failing CPS--------fairly common
Failing plug high-tension wires----most common
Coil feed wiring harness chafed thru---least common
Failing kill switch---------------least common
Failing ignition switch----------least common

CPS-do heat test
Coil--do OHMS test
Plug wires---do OHMS test
All else---do visual

You're welcome.

 

[Cooter]

It depends greatly on the circumstances of the loss of ignition, but I've had a rash of corroded right handlebar switches lately. Glad they're still cheap! When it's running wiggle test the red run switch and the key to see if the bike dies.

Heat related failure is commonly the CPS.

Loss of ignition on one cylinder is commonly the coil (or circuit).

 

[evilokc]

thanks for the replies guys. its an annoying issue. with these intermittent problems there is rarely a eureka moment where you know its fixed. you do the repair you believe is the issue then ride it out to see if you get left stranded. im glad you mentioned the heat test for the cps. i was going to ask how i test it. ive never had a starting issue when its hot though. ive had some bad stumbling/missing when im running it to higher rpm but the starting issue has always been completely cold. i will check out the handle bar wires as well. i appreciate having some direction to go.

 

[evilokc]

i ran out to give it a go. i started the bike and let it run about 30 seconds to see if it was going to play nice.it started perfectly. during that 30 seconds i wiggled the right handlebar wires but there was no change. i shut it down pulled the cover and after touching the cps to make sure it wasn't hot put some heat on it. i read that it should be just hot enough that you cant leave you fingers on it so that's what i did. once i felt the temp was right i hit the starter button and it wouldn't start. it was cranking but didn't even attempt to start. i assume this means the cps is bad? the glue over the wires is very spongy but i don't see any other physical damage.

 

[Cooter]

So have you tested for spark during the issue?

Not starting when cold is a common result of fouled plugs. Buells run a very long, very rich, cold start cycle. Starting it cold and running it for 30 seconds instead of warming it up completely will definitely foul plugs and do it very quickly. Causing a no start. Something to watch for.

Next time it won't start. Check for spark.

 

[kz6fittycent]

So have you tested for spark during the issue?

Not starting when cold is a common result of fouled plugs. Buells run a very long, very rich, cold start cycle. Starting it cold and running it for 30 seconds instead of warming it up completely will definitely foul plugs and do it very quickly. Causing a no start. Something to watch for.

Next time it won't start. Check for spark.

It will also provide an amazingly loud pop should it start...

 

[evilokc]

after i did the heat test on the cps it wouldn't start again for two days. today i walked by it and decided to hit the button and it fired immediately. can i do the cps heat test while the bike is running? the spark plugs and wires are new but i will look at them as well. will check for spark next time it happens. I'm almost positive i checked for spark the last time it happened and i wasn't getting any.

 

[Cooter]

I believe you are chasing a ghost rabbit down it's hole. Back up before you self-diagnosed an "intermittent no spark issue" and please answer this as clearly as you can.

So:
1) Does your bike die while riding? and
1A) Re-start immediately? (Ignition circuit, coil),
1B) Re-start only after cooling off. (CPS)

Or
2) Runs fine doesn't die but sometimes it will start and sometimes it won't.
2A) At any time hot or cold, like during a gas stop.
2B) When it's in the garage and has been sitting, cold.

If 2B sounds familiar... replace your plugs (Ya, I know, again) or clean them very well with solvent and compressed air. If you're too lazy for that, alternatively the next time it starts, do NOT turn it off, go get your damn helmet and ride that poor thing like a normal human for at least 25 MILES. Not 24 miles. Not Ricky McWheelie Racer BS, just go ride it.

Park it and don't ever start your Buell again unless you are holding your helmet and are going for at least a 10 mile ride.

 

[evilokc]

the bike has only ever died while riding once at a very long light. it was very hesitant to start back. i really didn't think it was going to start. it has only ever not started after sitting for a multiple hours . i will pull the plugs and see how they look and update you. i appreciate the help.

 

[Barrett]

All signs point to a failing CPS assembly. Bike is 15+ years old. Possible electrical gremlin lurking elsewhere but if in my shop...CPS is getting replaced...timing set...FC's cleared...and out the door.
AGAIN: "Spongy" aesthetics-Applied heat causes failure-Hot start failure history-My hunch backside of sensor shows obvious visual failure.

# 32443-04 BUELL SPECIFIC
Must have suffix B1-P to be correct
NO HD interchange....NO cross-reference....NO 2003 fitment....still available but pricey
Money tight? Several good used on Ebay right now. All come with 40 day money back guarantee. I'd try that.

 

[kz6fittycent]

All signs point to a failing CPS assembly. Bike is 15+ years old. Possible electrical gremlin lurking elsewhere but if in my shop...CPS is getting replaced...timing set...FC's cleared...and out the door.
AGAIN: "Spongy" aesthetics-Applied heat causes failure-Hot start failure history-My hunch backside of sensor shows obvious visual failure.

# 32443-04 BUELL SPECIFIC
Must have suffix B1-P to be correct
NO HD interchange....NO cross-reference....NO 2003 fitment....still available but pricey
Money tight? Several good used on Ebay right now. All come with 40 day money back guarantee. I'd try that.

May Barrett live forever.

 

[evilokc]

i pulled the plugs and they were rich but not terrible. i soaked them in solvent and cleaned them with a wire brush until they looked brand new.

 

[Cooter]

Good, those look terrible. Now, do the step ONE thing you need to do.

TEST for ****ing spark when it's not ****ing starting.

Pull off the front plug boot, stick a screw driver in it and hold it close to the head (by the handle), crank it over. Got a little flashy lightning bolt? THAT answer will dictate your next move. Nothing else.

Maybe you need a CPS? Maybe you need a coil? Maybe it's perfectly fine and just needs to be ridden (and for you to stop ****ing with it). If you don't "know" you are losing spark, this entire thread is useless.

Or, you can play Battleship all you want, it's a fun game and it's your wallet. Good luck. Literally. You'll need it.

 

[evilokc]

after cleaning the plugs and putting it all back together it started great twice. let it sit over night and im back to a no start. i put a spark tester on each spark plug and got no spark. put a meter on the coil. i got 0.9 on primary and 6.5 on the secondary. looking at the book that's in speck for the coil. seems the next logical test is going to be the plug going into the coil. im going to look it up to see what reading i should get off of that. any suggestions for a next step?

 

[Cooter]

Ok, finally. Thank you. Thats an answer we can move forward with.
I'm assuming 'No spark on BOTH cylinders while its cranking over healthily and quickly'
So we're gonna go one step down the path, if you are right that BOTH spark plugs lose spark at the same time, it is a big clue.

Ignition on/run switch on. Does the center wire on the grey 3-pin plug at the coil have power at the same time you're not getting spark? Check it sitting (12.5VDC+) and cranking (9.6VDC+).
*No? Swap the IGN relay with one of the others (they're all the same) and check its connections. Do the terminals look blue, heated, corroded? and check that wire for continuity, it goes to the fuse box. Could be a cheap fuse or bad fuse connection.
*My guess is you have a bad IGN relay or poor connection to it in the fuse box. But this is also something that would kill the bike while riding it... so the clues you've given previously are still suspect.

(Super rare but...) Yes, you have power on that center wire to the coil while not getting spark? Ok then put the test light cable on battery (+) and the pointy end on each of the primary wires that go into the coil, they are on either side of that same 3-wire plug and they are the wires that fire each side of the coil when they are grounded. Crank it over. Does the test light flash?
Yes? You have a bad coil. Replace it. Note that since it is 2 coils in one box it is SUPER rare that both sides would fail at once.
No? Check continuity on those same wires (they go to the ECM). But it would be SUPER rare that both of them would fail at the same time or possible ECM fault.

Wiring diagram at Buellmods.com or Google images.

 

[evilokc]

i put the meter on the battery and had just about 13v . the center post on the coil plug. 12.5 static 10 cranking. power light clamp on the pos(+) terminal of the battery and probe in the coil plug. this is where it gets sketchy for me. first few cranks i got nothing on the front cylinder side. i moved it to the rear cylinder side and it did light but the light was very weak looking and it didnt seem to be flashing as fast as the engine was cranking. i know it lights or it doesnt but it wasnt nearly as bright as many other things i have used that light on. i put the probe back on the front cylinder and i got a light. same story though very weak looking flash. i plugged the coil back in and the bike fired right off.