More clutch lever pull needed for higher gears?

[Endopotential]

On the theme of our bikes shaking everything loose...

I tried to ride my '09 XB9SX with 14k miles over the weekend and for some reason couldn't get into 3/4/5th gears. Even clutchless upshifting didn't work.
Trying to stay on the freeway past 55mph in 2nd gear was fun. Shifting 1-N-2 seemed to be OK, though harder than usual.

Back home I figured out that there was excessive slack in the clutch cable, fixed by adjusting the big barrel nuts. Not sure why, as it had ridden fine previously. Primary chain tension and oil level were OK. I took it for a test ride afterwards, and all back to baseline Buell happiness.

Trying to mull over the mechanics of what happened. Even with a clutch broken, you should still be able to do clutchless shifts given appropriate RPMs no? Or do the higher gears need more force from the shift forks or whatever?

 

[BuellyBagger]

I clutchless shift all the way up through the gears if I'm ripping on it. Cant say theres any difference per gear so your deal is strange for sure.
Seems really strange for the clutch cable adjuster to rattle loose too.
I did have the clutch adjustment jam nut (in the primary) come off on my Harley which caused similar symptoms. Might pull the derby cover off and check the full clutch adjustment?

 

[Cooter]

It should actually be easier to clutchless shift in-between the higher gears, not harder because the ratio difference is smaller between the higher gears. Going into 2nd is the hardest one to get smooth.

Clutchless shifting is the perfect description, no clutch needed. Don't know why yours wouldn't do it, adjusted or not. I have gotten home more than once with a completely snapped clutch cable that way:black_eyed: Last time was 300 miles home from Laughlin. Are you used to shifting that way? Does it clutchless shift fine now? I'm hoping its operator error

It's also VERY strange for that adjustment (any adjustment) to get out of whack that much, that fast. I would DEFINITELY pull the primary and check the clutch ramp for damage before it leaves you stranded. While its apart, look around behind the clutch basket at the shift pawls and little springs to make sure all is good there too.

 

[Endopotential]

Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, I did take off the small round cover and things looked OK, at least to the point of checking that inner screw for tension. I didn't take off the round hook / "clutch outer ramp" whatchamacallit that the clutch cable attaches to. Can you inspect the shift pawls and springs without pulling off the clutch?

I've been riding long enough to think my clutchless shifting has gotten pretty decent. Though my KTM Duke 790 with the quickshifter and autoblipper is making me lazy. When the bike was misbehaving, I couldn't get the shift lever to move up even with a fair bit of force.

Just for the sake of my learning - even if the system from lever through cable to the round clutch ramp disc is broken, the bike should still be able to shift right? As long as the clutch plates are engaged, the motor and transmission should run, and shifting should work with just RPM matching?

 

[upaero]

I clutchless shift all the way up through the gears if I'm ripping on it. Cant say theres any difference per gear so your deal is strange for sure.
Seems really strange for the clutch cable adjuster to rattle loose too.
I did have the clutch adjustment jam nut (in the primary) come off on my Harley which caused similar symptoms. Might pull the derby cover off and check the full clutch adjustment?

This is not recommended without a quickshifter to unload the transmission, which allows the gear change to happen safely and smoothly. Eventually something in the trans is going to give. Of course if you break a clutch cable (or it is way out of adjustment) you gotta do what you gotta do to get home, but it may require some extra throttle activity to get it to change gears.

 

[34nineteen]

Check to make sure the primary cover isn’t starting to crack.

Read this

https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?35084-Broken-Primary-Cover

 

[Outlaw]

I just installed a kit from David Flack for this issue. Wife lost her clutch on her 09XB12 down at the tail in October. Very simple repair/mod.

 

[Barrett]

David: i would NOT continue to ride it until the exact cause is identified and repaired. in all probability, your simple "barrel adjustment" is a temporary cure with a predictable short life-span. steps to identify what might have caused this situation:
1-upaero is correct. i have seen countless XL/XR/XB trans and shifter assemblies turned to scrap from "clutchless shifting". not recommended unless it's your only option while riding.
2-common motorcycle myth is that a clutch cable "stretches". it does not. the outer cable assembly, over time, compresses...resulting in excess play at the lever and requiring adjustment.
3-if the lever itself....lever perch....pivot hardware is all in good order.....then a sudden and pronounced excess amount of lever play on an XL/XR/XB is alway an internal problem and needs to be immediately addressed.
4-your situation not uncommon as these bikes continue to age. in most cases it is the result of either poor clutch pack/cable adjustment procedures thru the years...or sitting in gear, engine idling, clutch disengaged...for excess periods of time.
5-Josh correct as usual regarding Dave Flack repair kit. Dave is the go-to guru for this, short of buying a new primary cover.
6-check the following for signs of imminent failure:

A-clutch pack release assembly commonly referred to as ramp-and-ball component. rare that they fail but check
B-primary cover release assembly floor. it is the round aluminum lip that the release rides against when doing it's job. fairly common for this to crack and disintegrate. Dave Flack repair masterfully solves it.
C-adjustment release bearing. not sure why this wasn't mentioned. seeing these now failing mostly from abuse. failure symptom precisely what you described. highlighted for you.

good luck.

 

[BuellyBagger]

1-upaero is correct. i have seen countless XL/XR/XB trans and shifter assemblies turned to scrap from "clutchless shifting". not recommended unless it's your only option while riding.

Really? I was always under the impression that shifting by blipping the throttle correctly at proper rpm was perfectly fine on any motorcycle trans. Guess I'm being unduly hard on stuff?

(Sorry for minor thread derail)

 

[upaero]

Really? I was always under the impression that shifting by blipping the throttle correctly at proper rpm was perfectly fine on any motorcycle trans. Guess I'm being unduly hard on stuff?

(Sorry for minor thread derail)

Blipping the throttle to "RPM match" for downshifting is perfectly fine, but when upshifting you need a quickshifter if you want to "bang through the gears". Each of my bikes including an HD Nightster has QS because I think it's so much fun. It's also mandatory for the track.

We now return you to the regularly scheduled thread path.

 

[upaero]

the "regularly scheduled thread path" has taken us to this: none of my Buells or any of my three XR1200's have one of these nonsensical QS devices installed. why? because my superior riding skills in conjunction with lightning fast and velvety smooth shifting abilities, preclude the need for any such nanny-assist device. Supremely superior riders perform their own shifts.

Let the bashing commence.


OK, I will bite after that bashing. How fast can you shift? With QS it is done in less than 1/10 of a second. On a race track that equates to a fraction of a second for each shift. Each lap equates to multiple seconds. In a race that equates to eternity. Plus, it doesn't upset the suspension like letting off the gas, pulling in the clutch, performing shift, letting out clutch, getting on the gas does. Without it you're just slow. On the street it's just plain fun. Especially when you're taking off from a green light next to somebody who thinks it's nonsensical.

 

[BuellyBagger]

the "regularly scheduled thread path" has taken us to this: none of my Buells or any of my three XR1200's have one of these nonsensical QS devices installed. why? because my superior riding skills in conjunction with lightning fast and velvety smooth shifting abilities, preclude the need for any such nanny-assist device. Supremely superior riders perform their own shifts.

Let the bashing commence.

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View attachment 14953

I dont remember anything in the Geratol commercials about lightning quick shifting? Is there another supplement you're taking to keep up your reflexes John?

 

[BuellyBagger]

the "regularly scheduled thread path" has taken us to this: none of my Buells or any of my three XR1200's have one of these nonsensical QS devices installed. why? because my superior riding skills in conjunction with lightning fast and velvety smooth shifting abilities, preclude the need for any such nanny-assist device. Supremely superior riders perform their own shifts.

Let the bashing commence.


OK, I will bite after that bashing. How fast can you shift? With QS it is done in less than 1/10 of a second. On a race track that equates to a fraction of a second for each shift. Each lap equates to multiple seconds. In a race that equates to eternity. Plus, it doesn't upset the suspension like letting off the gas, pulling in the clutch, performing shift, letting out clutch, getting on the gas does. Without it you're just slow. On the street it's just plain fun. Especially when you're taking off from a green light next to somebody who thinks it's nonsensical.

Still dont understand how a QS shift wont damage a transmission, but "proper" clutch free upshifts will. They're doing basically the same thing as far as the transmission is concerned

 

[Cooter]

I think you guys are talking very minute differences. The only part of a motorcycle constant mesh trans that would get any wear would be the dogs on the side of the gear. Everything else is in "Constant Mesh". The dogs are the pegs on the side of the gear that lock into the holes of the mating gear to hold it in whatever gear you're in. They need to slide out of those holes as another set slides into the next gear.

The Barrett way: is to pull the clutch lever slightly as he superiorly upshifts to reduce pressure on the mated dogs in the trans so they can release from one gear and mate with the next one.:up:

The BuellyBagger proper clutchless upshift way is to: release some throttle pressure at the very moment he upshifts to slow the rate of engine acceleration. That reduces pressure on the mated dogs in the transmission.:up:

....which is the same exact thing that a nonsensical quickshifter (TM) does when it kills the ignition (or fuel) for about 80 milliseconds when you touch the shifter to upshift. The engine slows its rate of acceleration and releases some pressure on the mated dogs of the trans.:up:

All three of those methods should result in smooth upshifting without any damage to the dog faces on the sides of the transmission gears. The only difference is the quickshifter can be operated by any hairless monkey without skill or effort (The Cooter way). Theres a reason almost every performance bike for the last half a decade has a nonsensical quickshifter as OEM.

The only outlier here is improper shifting. WOT clutchless upshifts (not releasing a little throttle pressure) , and downshifting without blipping the throttle will cause the dogs to slam into the next spinning gear and sometimes not even fully engage, causing wear on the sharp edges that hold the gears together. Round those off enough (usually 2nd gear) and it can pop out under acceleration sounding just like a grinding gear teeth, but it is the dogs skipping over the mating holes, unable to lock the two gears together.

 

[Endopotential]

David: i would NOT continue to ride it until the exact cause is identified and repaired. in all probability, your simple "barrel adjustment" is a temporary cure with a predictable short life-span. steps to identify what might have caused this situation:
good luck.
View attachment 14950

John, thanks as always for your thorough and erudite explanations. So teach me some more -

Point 4 " result of either poor clutch pack/cable adjustment procedures thru the years...or sitting in gear, engine idling, clutch disengaged...for excess periods of time. " I thought motorcycle clutches were designed to do fine being disengaged for long periods, as at a red light. So splitting hairs, it's not really the clutch pack that's damaged but cable housing that gets squashed from being pulled on excessively?
And I could see it putting pressure on the ramp lip for too much time?

Point C "C-adjustment release bearing. not sure why this wasn't mentioned." How does one go about inspecting that? Doesn't look like it would come out easily. Can I just turn the back wheel and make sure that release bearing rolls smoothly?

Thanks gang for all your super useful input.
Have many of you done the ramp lip kit as just preventative maintenance even if it's not broken (yet)?

For now I'll take smooth shifting any way I can get, with or without a quickshifter. It'll take me another decade before I can aspire to Barrett's kungfu master skills.

 

[34nineteen]

5-Josh correct as usual regarding Dave Flack repair kit. Dave is the go-to guru for this, short of buying a new primary cover.

I can guarantee you its likely this, as much as it is likely that Cooter drank all the beer.




https://www.facebook.com/DMFMachini...h9gwDNUFSs7QKspZYTBIZXSYFDiOs6g&__tn__=kK-y-R

 

[Cooter]

I don't know anyone who would put that much money and time into a primary cover for only preventative measures for such a rare occurrence.

I would DEFINITELY pull the primary and check the clutch ramp for damage before it leaves you stranded.

What would I win 1.7894 beers?:angel:

 

[34nineteen]

I don't know anyone who would put that much money and time into a primary cover for only preventative measures for such a rare occurrence.

You should be able to pull the primary cover clutch access cover to see if that lip has been compromised or not. Pricing on the kit isnt half bad if you're handy.

DIY kit is $95 and if you'd like us to repair it for you that will cost $160.

What would I win 1.7894 beers?:angel:

Does it matter?

 

[Endopotential]

The instructions aren't explicitly posted (reasonable, as I'm sure he put a fair bit of R&D into the project).

But I'm guessing it involves grinding off the lip, flush with the webbing of the cover, with maybe some sort of die grinder and then levelling smooth with a sander? And drill and tap those mounting holes.

I've got that stuff in the garage. I'm up for another DIY project, but really hope I won't have to.

 

[Outlaw]

It's very simple with clear instructions. A dial caliper helps with making it perfect.