RACE MAP vs STOCK MAP - EXTRA LEAN GROUND BEEF!

[pdksh]

Happy new year folks. I added a 2007 XB12R to the stable, i wanted a 2010 XB9 for the extra cool blacked out stuff but I couldn't resist the price. Like most Buells, she had a rough life and I have sorted out most of the common issues.

Next steps, flashing the ECM. I have ecmspy and I'm confident with the process but one thing that stuck out was how much leaner the race map is. I have sourced a couple of DDFI-II RACE maps and they are all the same. LEAN. When I loaded the map into the XB12R the header started to glow read after idling for a period of time. The bike has a K&N filter, and a D&D pipe.

I have read posts up/down that say a glowing header on an XB is pretty normal BUT my 08 XB12XT has never glowed and the factory map for the XB12R doesnt glow. I have replaced intake seals and their are no leaks/cracks on the header. I don't have a AFV value to share, I reset it to 100% and did a TPS reset.

Comments? Observations?

 

[34nineteen]

Happy new year folks. I added a 2007 XB12R to the stable, i wanted a 2010 XB9 for the extra cool blacked out stuff but I couldn't resist the price. Like most Buells, she had a rough life and I have sorted out most of the common issues.

Next steps, flashing the ECM. I have ecmspy and I'm confident with the process but one thing that stuck out was how much leaner the race map is. I have sourced a couple of DDFI-II RACE maps and they are all the same. LEAN. When I loaded the map into the XB12R the header started to glow read after idling for a period of time. The bike has a K&N filter, and a D&D pipe.

I have read posts up/down that say a glowing header on an XB is pretty normal BUT my 08 XB12XT has never glowed and the factory map for the XB12R doesnt glow. I have replaced intake seals and their are no leaks/cracks on the header. I don't have a AFV value to share, I reset it to 100% and did a TPS reset.

Comments? Observations?

A header glowing on ANY vehicle is not a good sign.

When you revert back to the stock tune, does the header still glow at idle?

 

[pdksh]

A header glowing on ANY vehicle is not a good sign.

When you revert back to the stock tune, does the header still glow at idle?

When I reverted back to the original EEPROM/MAP the glowing header problem goes away. Im going to leave the factory/stock map on the bike until I can go for some butt dyno runs.

When I say the RACE ECM MAP is lean, its numbers are leaner than my stock map.

 

[Cooter]

1) Why are you messing with the ECM at all?
a)Was it running poorly?

2) Did you source these "RACE" maps from a reputable place?
a)Are they proven to work on another bike?
b)Is it locked in Open Loop, unable to adjust itself?

3) How do you know it's really running lean?
a)W/B O2 AFR reading?
b)O2 sensor voltage?
c)AFV correcting quickly to a higher number?
d)Poor running?
e)High MPG?
f)A temp gun reading from the headpipe?

No matter what map you put in with ECMDroid, check ALL of the ECM parameters because they come with that type of file. Re-set the TPS, AFV to 100, EGO to 100, make sure closed loop is ON and the AFV limits are at least 85-115. Make sure closed loop at idle ON as well. Check the fan temp settings (some were reversed), check the O2 voltage limits are the same as the stock map, check timing. THEN you can install it and test.

I'm not scared of a dark red glowing header at extended idle and I don't see it as a problem to be obsessed over. Even ambient lighting can make a big difference on what it looks like. If you're still worried, find out why it's getting hotter, it's not the map.

The 'race' part of ANY race map is in the Open Loop section, so it isn't active at idle. Look at idle settings. Just advancing the base timing can make a header glow.

TLDR; Turn ON closed loop idle, free the AFV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_vQt_v8Jmw

 

[pdksh]

thank you for the very detailed reply.

Looks like I have some homework to do.

1) I'm messing around because I can, not my daily ride.
2) Bike was/is running fine. It had a stock tune and a jardine pipe. The jardine exploded (surprise) and I put on a D&D.

I pulled the maps off the net (YES I KNOW) but I have compared a number of them from various sources and the numbers visually check out on both the STOCK ECM and RACE ECM maps.

I will review all of the suggested settings and monitor the O2 sensor, AFV and EGO values.

I have read on a number of places; FaceBook, BadWeather and other various online forums that the RACE MAP is leaner and a number of folks have glowing headers at idle. You need to be in a poorly light shop to see the header start to glow. Lucky for me my garage lighting is terrible I'm sure when they tuned the RACE ECM it was for screaming down a track, not idling on a stand. Something so simple as an external fan may relieve the glowing header BUT if I get stuck in city traffic I don't want my bike igniting itself

The engine FAN works fine. I just installed a new one, after fixing the old one (gummed up with oil) and promptly dropping it on the ground, cracking the housing - DUH!

I'm not trying to squeeze an extra MPH out of the top end, I'm messing around, I really enjoy breaking things that work fine. I want to know if other folks were seeing glowing headers at idle with a race map.

I have ECMSPY, the ECMSPY Tuning Guide and a certified BUTT DYNO, what could go wrong! I don't use ECMDROID to do load maps.

Again Thank you for your critical, well thought out response. I will do my homework and let you know how I make out.

 

[Cooter]

Awesome. Getting honest answers to questions helps us... help you:love_heart:

and the numbers visually check out on both the STOCK ECM and RACE ECM maps.

by "visually check out", do you mean reading the injector dwell numbers? higher is more fuel and 255 is max, but again... the map doesn't matter because it doesn't affect idle. In fact, it doesn't affect anything besides WOT*

I have read ... that the RACE MAP is leaner and a number of folks have glowing headers at idle.
No way ANY fuel map that is meant for a freer flowing exhaust and intake is leaner than OE. You may have a leaner result out of the pipe if the map doesn't compensate enough for the added volumetric efficiency, BUT the map itself WILL BE RICHER. That is the whole point of making one. More fuel= more power= more race

You need to be in a poorly light shop to see the header start to glow. Lucky for me my garage lighting is terrible
Thats what I thought. If you can't see it in daylight=no problem. Really. You're chasing a non-problem. It could be the difference of a few degrees of ambient.

BUT if I get stuck in city traffic I don't want my bike igniting itself
You won't be riding it that hard in traffic, and it would take quite a bit more for fire to be involved.. like needing something combustable...

The engine FAN works fine. I just installed a new one, after fixing the old one (gummed up with oil) and promptly dropping it on the ground, cracking the housing - DUH!
That sucks but good point. To calm your nerves, check the engine temp with each tune. Air-cooled bikes HATE extended idling, being "air cooled" ya know, but thats where you say your issue is so you should check it during that.It should just get to the same on/off fan temp cycle and stay there, no matter the headers color.

I really enjoy breaking things that work fine.
I'm in that club Since a wee lad, I've been taking X-mas presents apart that same day, to my mothers dismay, she'd say "HEY!, no WAY!, not TODAY!" so I'd go away, and play, feeling grey.

I have ECMSPY, the ECMSPY Tuning Guide and a certified BUTT DYNO, what could go wrong! I don't use ECMDROID to do load maps.
Awesome, that means you can check base timing. It is a base timing change that can make your header glow, because it is not the fuel map. NO offense to your butt, but a butt dyno is notoriously bad. Not just insensitive, but a horrible subjective test.

So, is this the legit 'Buell (TM) RACE map'? Or an internet map meant for the D&D? They aren't all bad, I'm asking because I want to know if it's an Open Loop or Closed Loop tune, and if it is indeed OL, how it was converted. By turning off Closed Loop properly or 'locking the AFV at 100'? Does it require adding a Baro sensor?

Either way, if you enable closed loop at idle, the ECM will read whats coming out of the pipe (lean or rich) and adjust to stoic, alleviating your fears of being lean no matter what tune you have in it or if the pipe continues to be a little deep red.

Good luck, enjoy the wormhole:eagerness:

*and dynamic throttle changes, trying to keep it simple here. But still will not affect idle. The ECM is not using the OL map at idle.

 

[34nineteen]

From the interwebs:

How to tell what temperature a glowing object (metals) might be:

It doesn't really matter what the emitter is...stainless steel, cast iron, tungsten in your light bulb, the temps are about the same for a given color. Generally accepted colors/temps are:


::C ----- ::F ---- Color

400 -- 752 -- Red heat, visible in the dark
474 -- 885 -- Red heat, visible in the twilight
525 -- 975 -- Red heat, visible in the daylight
581 -- 1077 - Red heat, visible in the sunlight
700 -- 1292 - Dark red
800 -- 1472 - Dull cherry-red
900 -- 1652 - Cherry-red
1000 - 1832 - Bright cherry-red
1100 - 2012 - Orange-red

I only dream of a day where all forum users have access to the google search engine.

 

[pdksh]

34-19 it was SMOKING HOT!!! according to your burn-o-matic gage so around 500 degree C im assuming. Way Too Warm, I don't have to shave the right side of my face HOT. The rear header was notably redder but its also had a lot less air flow and is in a darker region of the engine.

I've been playing with buells enough to know it was way too hot.

 

[34nineteen]

34-19 it was SMOKING HOT!!! according to your burn-o-matic gage so around 500 degree C im assuming. Way Too Warm, I don't have to shave the right side of my face HOT. The rear header was notably redder but its also had a lot less air flow and is in a darker region of the engine.

I've been playing with buells enough to know it was way too hot.

Yeah, but was the fuel boiling in the frame? Was the fan running at full song? I've had 1125's do that before, and my Ss did it once when the head temp sensor failed. I know my header wasnt anywhere near getting red, but that was still absolutel-friggin hot. I would have been interesting to get a laser temp probe and see just how hot they were. I think gasoline boils around 425-ish (F) so I'd be curious if yours was boiling too. When that happens, it tends to push past the check valve/vent in the frame and spews gas out of the overflow. Nothing like having your engine hotter than ever and gasoline spilling all over the place.

 

[Cooter]

You need to be in a poorly light shop to see the header start to glow. Lucky for me my garage lighting is terrible

But by your previous quote, more like the very bottom of the list, like 400C. Which is NOT engine temp.

It is the temp of the single wall tube that has burning fuel in it, yes it's "smoking hot" and is designed to withstand about four times that temp.
"Stainless steel’s melting point falls between 2550 and 2790°F or 1400 and 1530°C."
from here: https://www.kloecknermetals.com

Without overheating the engine, without exploding the gas tank, without burning to the ground. Your engine temp appears to be fine, that is all that matters.

Check for retarded base timing. Don't mess with it, it's all fine, just check as a reason to calm your nerves. A quick google search should show you a lot of non-mechanics have the same question and the same erroneous assumption of being lean. Scroll down any of them and and a real mechanic will be giving the same answer I'm giving you now.

I've said my peace, I'll leave you alone now because theres no problem to solve. Have fun messing aboot:angel:


Thats a great list 34:19, good to have as a reference:up: It was on the test at welding class, the teacher forgot it was also a chart on the wall:eagerness:

 

[Lusiphur]

I've had the Race Kit on both my Buells.
Never had an issue.
My current buell is a 2006 and running fine. I drive it in traffic and it idles and no boom

 

[pdksh]

I reloaded my race map and let it idle for a while. The AFV was 100% because I reset it. The O2 sensor hummed nicely, apparently working and the EGO hovered around 120%

The rear pipe did obtain a faint glow, had to turn the lights off to see it. Temp sensor reported 360 degree F and the fan works just fine. ECMspy reported IDLE mode and toggled to open and closed loop when giving short revs. I did setup a small standing fan to help move air around.

I agree there isn’t a problem to fix. I suspect I got a little REV happy when I first noticed the hot exhaust pipes. :-0

Now I’m waiting for spring to take a test ride. -4 degree F here yesterday,

Thanks for the reassurances

 

[Barrett]

Stoich unachievable with non-existent closed loop parameters pursuant to DDFI-2 cell entry interfacing.
Children assisting toddlers cause for concern.

ich

 

[pdksh]

Stoich unachievable with non-existent closed loop parameters pursuant to DDFI-2 cell entry interfacing.
Children assisting toddlers cause for concern.

ich

Barrett,

I was totally upfront about playing with a non daily rider and NOT blaming the bike or asking for tons of free tuning advice. No cause for concern at all. I wanted to know if others had observations about glowing pipes. Folks here have never steered me wrong.

My interest is strictly educational.


If you compare the race and stock maps side by side you will see the fuel numbers are leaner but as I’m learning, that number is influenced by many other factors.

 

[Lusiphur]

performance tunes are always a little lean, but its a matter of them being properly balanced to avoid knock and killing the engine.

Nothing wrong with playing around, learning and investigating,
It's just that the title of your thread and your first post came in a little hot.

You gave some of the older members PTTS [Post Traumatic TPEHAK Syndrome]

 

[pdksh]

Point taken. All about the shock value

 

[ksquare]

Just because I can and to be a smart ass:
Gasoline combustion - 3250 F
Induction furnace - 5450 F
Acetylene flame - 4080 F
Glowing cigarette - 1450 F
Dull red heat - 1300 F
Cherry red heat - 1740 F
Kitchen range flame - 3100 F
Electric arc light - 7200 F
Yellow heat - 2120 F
Brilliant white heat - 2550 F
Center of sun - 27,000,000 F
Highest man made temp - 5,500,000,000,000 K or 9,899,999,999,540.33 F

 

[Cooter]

Sorry to correct you, but the "Highest Man Made Temp" is actually repeatable in my kitchen. It is the plate under my microwave burrito at approximately 500 Billion Zillion degrees.

The burrito is still luke warm though, better get the lava gloves on and put it back in for 50 seconds.

 

[34nineteen]

Beep beep MF

 

[Cooter]

:eek-new: