Trouble finding neutral

[patrickXB]

After a lengthy battle with a poor running engine, I’m now on to a smaller issue. I cant get the bike to shift into neutral once it’s warm.
It shifts into neutral while cold until it warms up, and once it’s warm I can’t get it into neutral unless I shut the bike down.

I’ve adjusted the primary chain, verified correct fluid type and amount, and adjusted the clutch per the manual. It still wouldn’t find neutral..

So assuming I didn’t do the adjustments correctly I took it to a buell knowledgeable mechanic and he verified it was done correctly, but he started from scratch and did a text book adjustment on the primary chain, cable and the ramp.He had me switch to a different primary oil, but alas, no change.

He’s now suggesting a new clutch pack? I have no clutch slipping symptoms. Should we be checking something else before a new clutch pack?

Thanks!

 

[casual_observer]

Have you tried adjusting the primary chain when the bike is warm/hot? Or warm the bike up, and when you realize its not shifting to neutral, shut the bike down, and loosen the primary chain adjuster a little and see if that helps. Chain drive mechanisms often have a tight and a loose point, so it helps to make sure you check the tension at a few spots, and the assembly tends to expand and tighten up a little when it warms up.

 

[patrickXB]

I did the first primary chain adjustment when it was hot, and the second time when it was cold. There was no noticeable difference.

 

[casual_observer]

I did the first primary chain adjustment when it was hot, and the second time when it was cold. There was no noticeable difference.

Did you try to loosen the primary adjustment after the bike became difficult to find neutral? A couple of turns will suffice and will indicate whether the issue is due to the chain being too tight.

Or warm the bike up, and when you realize its not shifting to neutral, shut the bike down, and loosen the primary chain adjuster a little and see if that helps.

 

[Barrett]

That Canuck, as usual, provided great info and insight. Having said that....there are 3 critical adjustments that combined, directly affect clutch actuation...clutch engagement and disengagement....and shifting characteristics. They are simple and straight-forward as spelled out in the service manual. Those adjustments are of the clutch cable...clutch pack...primary drive chain. If all 3 are done correctly and you're confident that they have been, then the obvious problem barring a complete or partial failure of the clutch actuator ball ramp assembly and/or the face that it presses against on the inside of the primary cover....is a failed clutch pack consisting of warped friction and metal drive plates. They are preventing complete disengagement of the clutch assembly resulting in your precise problem.

 

[patrickXB]

thanks guys, i am confident that it is adjusted properly. He also mentioned it could be a bent shift fork, or "something not properly aligned in the trans". If it was a bent shift fork or something not being aligned correctly wouldn't that present a shifting problem all the time as opposed to only when its warm?

I'm going to try a new clutch pack before I tear the trans apart...
I've seen some good talk about the energy one clutch packs, any other recommendations?

 

[Cooter]

I'll tell you the same thing these fine gentlemen did.
Get the bike warm, take off the small inspection cover (the 2 bolt cover, NOT the 3 bolt cover) put a ruler against the case and push up and down on the chain with a screwdriver. Got enough play? too loose is MUCH better than even a smidge too tight. Check several spots by moving the bike in gear (high gear works easier to rotate the engine).

Personally I adjust the primary chain while the bike is running/warm. Loosen until it gets noisy, tighten slowly until it gets quiet... then starts to get loud, and back it off to the middle of the quiet section. You can hear it fine, even with aftermarket mufflers.

If it passes that test^^^ try this:

Bike warm and idling in gear on level ground, clutch pulled in, no brakes. Does it want to creep forward? Can you push it back and forth with the same effort with your feet easily? Failing this test will tell you the clutch is dragging and will make it VERY hard to get to neutral. Proceed accordingly. And your mechanic... isn't "Could be", and "something isn't" aren't things a professional is supposed to say. A professional is supposed to test until they KNOW.

You're correct that bent stuff should pose a problem all the time but...

Bubbles put an Energy One clutch in her Scg and it's great. FYI they recommend ATF for primary, so follow directions. It would be weird to have clutch plates to warped they drag (no neutral) and you don't have an surging or wobbly engagement issue. I'd recommend finding the problem before throwing parts at it.

 

[casual_observer]

thanks guys, i am confident that it is adjusted properly. He also mentioned it could be a bent shift fork, or "something not properly aligned in the trans". If it was a bent shift fork or something not being aligned correctly wouldn't that present a shifting problem all the time as opposed to only when its warm?

I'm going to try a new clutch pack before I tear the trans apart...
I've seen some good talk about the energy one clutch packs, any other recommendations?

Energy One is a solid choice. You will need a tool to remove the clutch pack or you can try to mickey mouse something with some hardware store bits. Be sure to follow the instructions on fluid recommendations given from Energy One. Youre going to be about $200+ into this, so youre going to want to make sure this is the culprit. "Cooter" as well as the fine gentleman "Barrett" gave excellent rec's on things to look at before diving into the clutch. If this doesnt work, transmission work will require nearly COMPLETELY disassembling the bike and motor. XB's do not have the trapdoor style transmission the earlier models did.

 

[patrickXB]

I tried all of the above recommendations and there is no noticeable change in finding neutral.

It shifts through the gears well so I doubt that its a bent shift fork or a shift drum issue. I would expect that if it was an internal transmission issue that it wouldn't go into neutral at all, or would present itself in another way through the gear shifts? I only have an issue finding neutral when the bike is warmed up and running. If its cold and running, it shifts to neutral. If its warm and I shut it off, it shifts into neutral easily.

The bike doesn't creep, and it moves freely backwards while in gear with the clutch pulled.

200-ish for a clutch pack isn't as bad as I expected. Energy one has options for an extra plate and a 15% stronger spring diaphragm. Are these worth the extra cash?

 

[casual_observer]

I tried all of the above recommendations and there is no noticeable change in finding neutral.

It shifts through the gears well so I doubt that its a bent shift fork or a shift drum issue. I would expect that if it was an internal transmission issue that it wouldn't go into neutral at all, or would present itself in another way through the gear shifts? I only have an issue finding neutral when the bike is warmed up and running. If its cold and running, it shifts to neutral. If its warm and I shut it off, it shifts into neutral easily.

The bike doesn't creep, and it moves freely backwards while in gear with the clutch pulled.

200-ish for a clutch pack isn't as bad as I expected. Energy one has options for an extra plate and a 15% stronger spring diaphragm. Are these worth the extra cash?

Have you tried variations of the clutch adjustment?

You may have a tolerence stacking issue that requires a *slightly* different adjustment than what the book calls out. The book does call out a range... did you go for the middle or one side of the range?

Did you actually check the fluid level of the primary correctly? Its a slightly smaller cavity, so the old adage of "a quart in, a quart out" for Sportster engines tends to be a bit too much on an XB.

CAUTION
Do not overfill the primary chaincase/transmission with
lubricant. Overfilling can cause rough clutch engagement, incomplete disengagement, clutch drag and/or difficulty in finding neutral at engine idle. (00199b)

 

[patrickXB]

Haha Barrett, we’re both on the same page, but for the sake of being thorough I gave it one last college try. I’m ordering the clutch pack as we speak. I’ll update once I get it installed.

 

[patrickXB]

Well guys, I’ve got the new clutch pack in and it still won’t find neutral. It definitely shifts better and the clutch pull is nice… but I still can’t get the bike into neutral while running.

 

[outthere]

You've probably tried this already. Back off on the primary chain adjustment.

 

[patrickXB]

Ive tried all sorts of things to get this thing to shift into neutral. im going to send it to the aagaard moto foundry and see what they can do with this thing. Ill report back.

 

[patrickXB]

I’m digging into the primary. Does the clutch basket wear appear normal? There’s some slight gouging in the hub. The pushrod bearing seems good. Im pulling the basket to check the clutch basket bearing tomorrow. If that all checks out normal, im at a loss.

The bike came with aftermarket levers. Is it possible the clutch lever is to blame?

Thanks,
-pat

 

[Cooter]

Because you said this:

The bike doesn't creep, and it moves freely backwards while in gear with the clutch pulled.

then there is NO issue with clutch dragging, that commonly causes your issue.

Replace the shift star, lever/roller, and spring. Perhaps the detent is worn, the roller loose, or the springs weak. All super rare things but Heck, you're in there already, we're all guessing now, and it's not my money or my time.

I can tell you that adding a quick shifter certainly helps this common issue (and a fantastic addition). They are so rudimentary on a Buell that it still kills the ign (80mS) at idle and on the 1-N shift so it lets it drop into neutral easier. You never even posted what year your bike is so go find it yourself at Rev-Mo.com

 

[Barrett]

View attachment 16319

I’m digging into the primary. Does the clutch basket wear appear normal? There’s some slight gouging in the hub. The pushrod bearing seems good. Im pulling the basket to check the clutch basket bearing tomorrow. If that all checks out normal, im at a loss.

The bike came with aftermarket levers. Is it possible the clutch lever is to blame?

Thanks,
-pat

The bike came with aftermarket levers. Is it possible the clutch lever is to blame?

YES.
What's the distance between lever tip and perch tip in millimeters at full operating temp with lever at full disengagement? Fat bulky grips also strongly affect clutch lever pull to full disengagment.

 

[34nineteen]

im going to send it to the aagaard moto foundry and see what they can do with this thing. Ill report back.

What did Aagaard Moto Foundry say/do? If anyone can figure it out, its going to be Chaz.

 

[DamMechanic]

Not trying to be a Richard Cranium but what is a verifiable fluid type?
There has been some great advice here on just backing off the primary chain tension just as a test. If you open up the primary and you have a dial indicator, I would check to see if your transmission input shaft bearing is toast and even though you have what the proper adjustment is, it could be in a bind if your input shaft bearing is junk.

 

[Nade]

I'm going to suggest the after market clutch lever as the culprit.
I changed my clutch cable a few weeks ago, and changed to an after market clutch lever at the same time. Initially I had a similar issue with it, in that when I finished adjusting it as per the manual, it didn't slip into gear easy and was a bit 'grippy'. After a ride and warming up, going into first gear was a loud thump and crunch and the bike lurching.
Eventually I found the lever, while adjusted to factory spec's was the problem. ITS NOT FACTORY. I found as I adjusted the lever and increased or decreased the pull distance of the lever at the grip, the more or less of the cable was pulled. I fiddled around with the cable adjustment at the lever, resetting and adjusting a couple of times until it 'felt' right while in use. Took me a couple of hours of messing around, checking and rechecking, but smooth as butter now.

In hind sight this makes sense to me.
As Barret mentioned, if the cable mounting hole in the aftermarket lever is in a slightly different position, or the lever pivot point is slightly different than factory it will make a difference and will of course mean the factory settings for the perch adjustment will be different.

A similar situation to aftermarket brake levers causing issues when adjusted to factory spec's for a non factory part.......ending in front wheel lock ups etc.