Any last ideas before I dive into the world of custom tunes?

[lowkey]

Yugo you need the .msq file, aka map file (fuel/timing map only extracted from the EEPROM think 2D grid of TPS/RPM cell values) the only software that I know of that can extract this is ECMSpy ..XPR is a different format of the EEPROM and can easily be pulled with ECMDroid, but won't help you getting the correct file for inputting in MLV. Again without this file input in MLV the software is useless for its intended purpose of editing the fuel map (it is still very useful in checking sensor parameters). You must get your hands on ECMSpy or you have gone as far as you can.

You could also combine MLV/ECMSpy functions using TunerProRT as an all in one solution but you will need to devote months to learn how to do it all.

 

[lowkey]

Host the files on Google drive then link what you want to share here, this is how I do all my file sharing on this forum.

 

[yugo42]

I copied my most recent logs here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MsNhdv9lhUzWYVBxQEq8GC-8w2hvfcuU?usp=sharing

I have been slowly picking away at this and was using MLV to verify that all sensors are working properly, corrections are being applied as expected, and to see how far off my base map is (at least as much as one can tell with a NB sensor). I would say that all sensors appear to be behaving as expected, and that my bike is much happier running a little richer than 14.7:1 at cruising.

I had planned to get ECMSpy Mono installed when I got to the point of needing to modify the tune, so it sounds like I am at that point now!

 

[lowkey]

https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?6430-ECM-Spy-Download&p=555607&viewfull=1#post555607

The version that works with DDFI2 (2003-2007 XB's) is still available here^, combined with MegalogViewer you can do almost everything possible (TunerProRT still has all possible access to the EEPROM editing that we have access to) ECMSpy MONO is also a great choice and combines its own version of MegalogViewer analysis into ECMSpy as an all in one option, just keep in mind Gunter only designed it to work with 2 brands of WB if you decide to go that route... I would use that software if it wasn't for having an AEM WB already witch isn't one of the 2 comparable WB's it is made to work with.

 

[rb70383]

On mine I noticed outliers in the timing map just off idle. I just smoothed those out and the bike has no more hiccup starting off. Always fun when that happens turning. worse when cold. I can cruise as low as 2200 rpm. Just to see how it ran. Around town I'm usually 2700-3200. (30-40mph)
Now I swapped in another muffler. I'm getting some surging now as expected, as my AFV did go up. I only have a NB O2 so my map isnt too precise. I do have a dual WB's I need to install.

 

[cossack84]

On mine I noticed outliers in the timing map just off idle. I just smoothed those out and the bike has no more hiccup starting off. Always fun when that happens turning. worse when cold. I can cruise as low as 2200 rpm. Just to see how it ran. Around town I'm usually 2700-3200. (30-40mph)
Now I swapped in another muffler. I'm getting some surging now as expected, as my AFV did go up. I only have a NB O2 so my map isnt too precise. I do have a dual WB's I need to install.

Do you care to post a screen grab of your timing table? Curious to see how it looks.

 

[cossack84]

I copied my most recent logs here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1MsNhdv9lhUzWYVBxQEq8GC-8w2hvfcuU?usp=sharing

I have been slowly picking away at this and was using MLV to verify that all sensors are working properly, corrections are being applied as expected, and to see how far off my base map is (at least as much as one can tell with a NB sensor). I would say that all sensors appear to be behaving as expected, and that my bike is much happier running a little richer than 14.7:1 at cruising.

I had planned to get ECMSpy Mono installed when I got to the point of needing to modify the tune, so it sounds like I am at that point now!

I haven't had a chance to look through your logs yugo. I did see them up on the google drive.

 

[yugo42]

https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?6430-ECM-Spy-Download&p=555607&viewfull=1#post555607

The version that works with DDFI2 (2003-2007 XB's) is still available here^, combined with MegalogViewer you can do almost everything possible (TunerProRT still has all possible access to the EEPROM editing that we have access to) ECMSpy MONO is also a great choice and combines its own version of MegalogViewer analysis into ECMSpy as an all in one option, just keep in mind Gunter only designed it to work with 2 brands of WB if you decide to go that route... I would use that software if it wasn't for having an AEM WB already witch isn't one of the 2 comparable WB's it is made to work with.

Awesome, thanks for the link! I didn't think that version was still available. I have to salute the bravery of the first guy to try out the software from that strange Russian site, but it seems to work fine. I didn't have much luck with my converted MSQ file in ECMSpy as it had some zero lines inserted in some weird places, so I'll have to bring the laptop out to the bike later and download the map directly into ECMSpy. Oddly the converted version worked in MLV.

 

[yugo42]

On mine I noticed outliers in the timing map just off idle. I just smoothed those out and the bike has no more hiccup starting off. Always fun when that happens turning. worse when cold. I can cruise as low as 2200 rpm. Just to see how it ran. Around town I'm usually 2700-3200. (30-40mph)
Now I swapped in another muffler. I'm getting some surging now as expected, as my AFV did go up. I only have a NB O2 so my map isnt too precise. I do have a dual WB's I need to install.

Mine seemed to show some unexpected advance just off idle in the timing map too. I didn't get much time to look into it yet but just found it odd. I'm curious if your table looks like mine.

Yeah, the jumpiness on turns has me riding like a grandma around corners sometimes. Pretty sad to do on a bike that handles as well as these!

 

[lowkey]

I didn't have much luck with my converted MSQ file in ECMSpy as it had some zero lines inserted in some weird places, so I'll have to bring the laptop out to the bike later and download the map directly into ECMSpy. Oddly the converted version worked in MLV.

This sounds odd... explain your process for getting the .msq file. I've seen ECMSpy do something similar with .txt files from the internet. I'd suggest running windows signed in as administrator, then right click ECMSpy and choose run as administrator. Connect to the bike and fetch EEPROM then save both the EEPROM and MAP file to desktop. Open a second ECMSpy window and load just the MAP you just saved navigate both windows to the MAPS tab and compare the values match up. I'd also suggest emailing both files to yourself and uploading to you drive account so you always have the unmodified files to go back to even if you computer takes a **** down the road. On desktop I make a folder when doing datalogs and tuning sessions V1-V1.1 etc... this way I can go back if I hit a snag or pick back up where I left off if I can't get to it for a while. You will want to put the log file and the .msq file from each log then after analysis in MLV spits out a refined .msq and you edit the front to match stick that into V1.1 folder with the next log.

There is no reason to think the CL area can't be spot on to 14.7-1 AFR using the NB sensor and logging. If you wish to run richer for some reason you just need to multiply the CL cells (after dialed in to 14.7 with MLV!) by a percentage for your desired AFR the same as OL (105%) and WOT (110%) does, keep in mind if you do this you will have to keep the ECM in open loop from now on and you lose the ability for the ECM to correct for atmospheric changes AND safeguards for engine/sensor issues. You can go baro or map sensor to bring back ECM adjustment for changing conditions.

Best to just dial the CL area of the map in to 14.7-1 and enable CL again... if the bike doesn't behave well then you most likely have a mechanical issue...

You should see timing advance somewhere around 2200RPM IIRC on both stock and race eeproms if they are unmodified. 0 timing from 800 RPM until the jump. BUT also keep in mind there is temperature timing advice table multiplier that drops down to 0 at 160C again IIRC.

You will get the hang of it and understand the more you use the software reference the tuning guide AND the MONO user guide as combined they will have all the info needed. :up:

 

[lowkey]

Here is what stock timing looks like (all values on the circled area TPS 10-20 through 1350RPM have been set to 8 degrees).



This is how to tun OFF or ON the temp based timing advance multiplier.

 

[yugo42]

This sounds odd... explain your process for getting the .msq file. I've seen ECMSpy do something similar with .txt files from the internet. I'd suggest running windows signed in as administrator, then right click ECMSpy and choose run as administrator. Connect to the bike and fetch EEPROM then save both the EEPROM and MAP file to desktop. Open a second ECMSpy window and load just the MAP you just saved navigate both windows to the MAPS tab and compare the values match up. I'd also suggest emailing both files to yourself and uploading to you drive account so you always have the unmodified files to go back to even if you computer takes a **** down the road. On desktop I make a folder when doing datalogs and tuning sessions V1-V1.1 etc... this way I can go back if I hit a snag or pick back up where I left off if I can't get to it for a while. You will want to put the log file and the .msq file from each log then after analysis in MLV spits out a refined .msq and you edit the front to match stick that into V1.1 folder with the next log.

I may not have explained my issue well. I tried to load the MSQ I converted from the XPR from ECMDroid and it showed up oddly when I opened it in ECMSpy. I connected the bike to the laptop tonight and successfully imported the EEPROM and maps into ECMSpy.

I've seen some advice online stating never to remove fuel when using the VE Analyzer. I'd understand maybe ignoring something with only a few hits, but I have a couple cells with relatively high hit counts that are reducing by about 25(!!). Most are trying to add fuel though. Any reason not to trust what the VE analyzer is saying on backing off fuel? Also, I'm using the "afrbins1" target AFR map per the ECMSpy Tuning Guide (most threads on this I have seen don't specify).

 

[lowkey]

It appears you have it set up right, with stock NB all you can really get an accurate cell hit on the left fueling side corresponding to the right side cells in AFR bin with target of 14.7 (red cells), all OL/WOT (richer than 14.7) would be out of the NB sensor range BUT if you were to get a lean hit and also look through the log at 02 voltage and see lower than .49V (IIRC as the mid point 02V?) you can trust to add fuel. Here is the best way to attack MLV IMO, take AFV percentage from your last CL all sensors ON ride, let's say it was 115%. I would take that 15% and apply it to all cells but the idle cells as I explained how to dial that in previously in this thread. Now you know it's safe to disable the 02 and not be running lean for lack of ECM corrections. Log and run analysis, you should be scaling back fuel at the cell level where not needed because you blanket added the 15%, you unfortunately are stuck not knowing what really is going on outside CL area of the map. I have a theory on a work around for this BUT haven't tested it because I have a WB and run my logs off of it. Idle was dialed with stock NB sensor though on my bike.

If you want to attempt my work around PM me your phone number and email and we can discuss further, this would allow you to run analysis on the enter rear fuel map.

The AFR bins1 file is associated with the front cylinder but IIRC they have the same cell values. Try to reference the sensor data for the cylinder you are working on 1 is the front and 2 is the rear, some of them only reference the rear as you've probably noticed. I can't say where the AFR bins data came from for sure, maybe the BUELL engineers or Gunter has this data infused when pulling the eeprom or map with ECMSpy. If you open the .txt with notepad and have a look you will find this AFR bins data, AFAIK it is only used for running analysis ALSO you can edit the cells for target AFRs of your choosing, mine is edited.

 

[lowkey]

I went through some of the screen grabs I got back when buellitenboard was still around... here is what Mike Cobb (Xoptimized) had to say on setting up the version of MLV that it looks like you are running.


Also you can set a cap for Load to 60 as this is the top of the CL area of the fuel map when enabled and the AFRbins should show 14.7AFR as the target up to this TPS value, same for RPM just set it to the highest value in the CL area of your map (4,000RPM?)

Hope this helps you get started.:up:

 

[rb70383]

Mine seemed to show some unexpected advance just off idle in the timing map too. I didn't get much time to look into it yet but just found it odd. I'm curious if your table looks like mine.

Yeah, the jumpiness on turns has me riding like a grandma around corners sometimes. Pretty sad to do on a bike that handles as well as these!

Pretty much. I smoothed out the timing in that area. World of difference. After my new muffler, the idle picked back up to 950-1050ish rpm. I left it after reading somewhere about the crankpin not liking low idle. Couldn't find it to further research.
??I'm guessing possible oil flow from low rpms, and maybe the uneven firing order, causing each power cycle to be felt on the crank..??

 

[rb70383]

Do you care to post a screen grab of your timing table? Curious to see how it looks.

Missed this. I will get a screen shot.
For a quickie, on the timing table posted above. I hit the 3 cells with "5" and the 4th cell with a "12". Blended the cells together. IIRC I also did add some advance to the 800 rpm column. That way if the idle drops, the ecm adds timing to help recover. Easier then it having to add fuel then take away fuel as rpms bounce.


Not sure I should mention this, but for those that want to research a bit, on the "ecm config" screen, you can change the volts, the o2 sensor references as the midpoint. It will skew the O2 sensor which ever way you bias it. If you make the midpoint, say, .5V the entire map will be richened up, as the 'new midpoint is now .5V

 

[lowkey]

Why is anyone trying to run richer than 14.7-1AFR at steady state cruise??? This is the ideal burn ratio. There is already a table in place to compensate fueling on acceleration. The acceleration enrichment table will add necessary fueling to carry you out of the CL (or compensate for TPS value increase wherever you may be in the fuel map) area of the map and into OL or WOT which have their own multipliers on the fuel table of 5% and 10% respectively.



By skewing the 02 (or any other trick to cheat the fuel table) without compensating ALL the various multipliers, all you are doing is causing excessively rich fueling everywhere, burning more fuel, fouling up plugs etc... MLV is for fine tuning the map for your conditions/bike/mods.

BTW not picking a fight, just stating how it all works together and it is a damn good (and complex!) bit of tuning from the BUELL engineers... It's your bike do as you wish.:black_eyed:

 

[Cooter]

^^^ :up:

 

[lowkey]

Also something I've not seen done once someone goes WB (I don't think they care to put in the time and effort to compare data) is input and log both NB and WB same cylinder at the same time to monitor NB use within MLV. If someone has junk yard access and is willing to grab the ECM side NB connector (Bosch single wire female side) and send it to me I'll wire it into the ECM on an unused pin and log both WB and NB. Doing this would have MLV analyze off of the NB input but allow an AFR visual to compare what/why/how? It is making adjustments to the fuel table outside its intended working 14.7AFRbins range and if it can be trusted or not for those stuck with stock rear NB as their only 02 log source. Or if someone can source one online for low cost as I'm coming up with nothing searching.




Here is acceleration enrichment along with the other multipliers at work, the circled AFR is from my AEM WB gauge input to the ECM through the stock NB ECM connector.

From this screen grab and time stamp we can see the ECM is taking the base cell value (white box covered) + 37% acceleration enrichment + WOT enrichment 110%(10%) - IAT enrichment 97% (-3%) and end up with an AFR of 11.38-1 when we want 13.0-1AFR as asked by the AFRbins map at this cell (lots of work to do in this example to remove fuel for target AFR).

Also of note in the screen grab is the red box under the AFRbins map that is labled "ACCEL-Y", this is stating that if you run analysis this portion of the log will be dismissed because of acceleration enrichment.

 

[Cooter]

That is a fantastic idea lowkey:eagerness: I'm all for quantifying data and that would be a HUGE benefit to se if NB tuning is good, close, or not worth it at all.

Should be easy to get that common connector, even new from e-bay would be cheap. My scrap pile might have a scuffed header I could weld an extra bung on.