ECM Spy Tuning HELP

[stopie20]

OK so after a short, but eye opening dyno run I know that I am lean between 2900 RPM and 3500 RPM at WOT and a couple throttle positions below. So I plan to add some fuel tonight. My question is what increments would you add in 5? 20?.... Also is it best to do this when your cold start enrichment is at 100% or does it even matter?
Also do you have to change both front and rear cylinders or will the ECM adjust the front to match the rear?

 

[GatorBuell]

are you just adding to the table or are you data logging? I guess if you have a dyno sheet with the tps position and the rpm you can add to the lean spots. I would say 5 to 10 but without data logging you really dont know.

If you are data logging then yes make sure your cold start enrichment is at 100 before you log.

Make your changes to the rear map then copy/paste to the front and add 2 to the entire front map.

 

[gbalias]

its all ratios.

(actual AFR/Desired AFR)VE = correction factor

thats given you know the exact cell you want to change, and the corresponding AFR (both desired and actual)


ECMspy is a great program, but when you start to play with high end aftermarket FI systems, all this stuff can be changed realtime on the dyno with usually just a single key stroke. a big crutch for the buells.

 

[stopie20]

well I had mike start tuning it before he went back to school and all in all it was pretty good except for a wicked flat spot. I could feel it every time I ran through the gears hard. after reading the tuning guied for ecm spy I felt fairly comfortable and confident that I had identified the rev range and throttle positions that I was feeling the flatness at so in a few of those particular cells I added some fuel to the rear map and then matchet the front to the back + 2 in each cell... went for a test ride and could feel a huge difference, now I have a good steady pull through all but like 200 rpm of the rev range I was targeting, however it seems a little slower to build r's under load. but I have no detonation if I just pull full throttle in top gear at 2400 on up. I will prob go a little leaner than what I am now or jus move the changes I made up 200 rpm...

this is kinda fun

 

[gbalias]

you have to understand that WOT will not always give you max power (tq)....especially under accel.


this has to do with physics, not the bike, mapping, timing, etc.

at low rpm and high load, the throttle plate is also acting like the stock xb12 exhaust valve. it affects the way the intake air is atomizing the fuel on its way to the combustion chamber. velocity has a lot to do with the amount of air entering the chamber for power. this is expressed in some way on the fuel map, especially tuned with a wideband. sometimes more fuel will be needed at lower TPS values in certain areas.

take this into consideration when just entering fuel values in the maps.


this is also why acceleration is faster (under certain circumstances) when you roll on the throttle instead of slam it WOT.

 

[stopie20]

right, I under stand all that, you would probably have to either see the data log or ride the bike to under stand what I mean by flat spot...
Horsepower should always build in a linear fashion say 40hp at 2200 rpm would climb to 55hp at 3000 rpm and then 70hp at 4800 rpm, but on the dyno my bike made 30hp at 2500 rpm and then dropped to 20hp at 2900 rpm then climbs back to 30hp at 3600 rpm then jumps to 78hp between 4200 rpm and redline... So like I said it way not right.

Thanks for the guidence though everyone on here has been helpful.

as for slamming the throttle open I understand that the velocity is not there in that situation that is needed to atomize the fuel. but thats not the battle Im fighting, I have the throttle open making power, and building velocity, then the power just goes away while the motor revvs along, the fuel I added already helped, now you can hardly feel the flat spot, it dose chug a little longer than I would like when I crack the throttle at like 2900 rpm. it pulls harder now, just revs a little slower prob take a little of the fuel back out at the lower revs that I added it to.

 

[gbalias]

you need to forget about HP and tune solely for TQ.


otherwise youll be chasing your tail.

HP is not necessarily linear.


are those numbers with the throttle WO on the reading from the dyno?

timing is where the power is, fueling is for thermal management.(within a certain range of course) its that simple and straight forward. if youve got so much time on the dyno, lock the rollers for a specific speed, and then start on the ignition cells one by one watching the real-time tq from the dyno as you go through the cells. adjust accordingly until you reach the minimum timing needed for max TQ. do this for as many cells you can on the dyno and the bike will be perfect forever.

thats it.

 

[stopie20]

No I dont have a dyno readily available nor do do I have a ton of time on one... This is just what I learned from a couple hard pulls on a dyno jet machine... I didnt really need the dyno I was just using it to illistrate what you could feel by riding the bike. I know this isnt the most technical way to make adjustments, thats why the moves I make are small, however since I dont have a dynomometer in my garage this is the best I can do for now. I also am not expecting to get it perfect, just better.

GB, dou you hae any good instructions for the megalog software that would be helpfull.

BTW, that timing adjustment method sounds like the way my dad used to adjust the ignition timeing in his hot rods, they would "power time" by brake torqueing the car and then aother person would turn the distributor until the tires started spinning... funny ****, I wonder how many of his friends got ranover?
GB, what do you charge to build custom maps, I have no wide band o2 sensor and just a few mods....
I'm not going full dyno tune now cuz I will be tearing the motor down in two months to do a big bore kit.

 

[gbalias]

what year/model bike you on?


i dont do custom tunes. well.....not long distance. ill get paid to do it in person at the rollers though.


damn....i thought maybe you had a friend at the shop or some other dyno hookup. by locking the dyno, i dont mean keep tires from spinning. the proper way to tune ignition is by setting up the rollers to keep at a certain speed. for this example, lets say 25mph.

rollers will not go anywhere above that 25mph....so...lets say we;re in 3rd gear, near idle and just barely on the throttle and its right about 25mph. at this point we're watching the REAL-TIME tq output given by the dyno software. lets say tps is at 25% and since the dyno is locked to speed, our RPMs are now also constant. this is very important for getting it right. because of this, as you turn the throttle the cells that are gonna be contacted are isolated in a single column. (here is where its good to do some experimentation on locking the dyno so the steady RPMs correspond to the columns in your timing map)...anyways.... so we start tuning timing here...
with the throttle isolated on one cell, and the RPM constant, we begin to advance timing while watching TQ output. if you plot TQ vs Ign advance on a 2 axis graph, you will see that the tq will begin to increase gently till it peaks and levels out at some point. if you keep advancing beyond this point, the tq output will begin to drop out and youll start to get audible knock. the BEST place to lock town your advance is gonna be just before that tq output begins to level off. save that ignition value, then turn the throttle a bit more to move up on the next cell.

then repeat for as many cells and RPM columns you can get to. and voila! perfect timing for the most power youre gonna get out of that engine for the fuel type being tested.

its not hard, just very time consuming and a lot harder on these ECMs since theres 2 different maps and its not really updating cell values on-the-fly\


i have 1203cc timing tables posted on buelletin in the ecmspy thread. pg70 i believe. but they might not necessarily work well for you. my goal was to dial it in for my climate/situation...but it might be a good place to start.

last verified for 91octane, about 2500-3000ft elevation, and up to 110deg AAT. power delivery is smooth, idle is improved and no detonation.


big bore kit will change all those attributes too. you have to consider the extra time it takes for the flame front to propagate across the chamber cross-section, so timing will need some more advance in some places.

it gets pretty involved...maybe i should write a laymans book or something. ahahah.



what kind of instructions on the MLV software do you need?

if you ask specifics i can help ya out. but theres already a lot of info on the process in various places.

lemme know.


-g

 

[gbalias]

ahhh....found it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRIbOCT1pO4

graphic representation... Ign timing vs TQ.

plain as day in the video, what i described above.

 

[stopie20]

I am riding the 2007 XB12s and I have all the typical mods done so far.. I currently have a voodoo pipe on it and its ok, I really like the pipes you build , but I have to have a chin faring[smirk].

Yeah, once I have the big bore kit it will be all re done on a dyno and I will most likley be using the direct link software, lots of details to figure out yet,
As far as the megalog viewer goes, I thought I read somewhere that there was an "auto tune" function If I'm not mistaken I would like to learn how to use this. any pointers?

 

[gbalias]

ah....the 'autotune'....

im gonna assume you are familiar with datalogging, and making the log compatible with MLV.(which should be the default)

from here on out, we will be working with the REAR maps only. REAR. until otherwise noted.

what you do, is load your datalog into MLV. you will see data info on the bottom gauges, as well as the graphical representation. this area can be customized to show whichever sensors you like.

once your log is loaded in MLV, you need to load the maps that were used when the log was done. THIS IS VITAL TO GETTING IT CORRECT. always load the maps, regardless if you think they are already there!!!

now, where the maps are, you can select which ones to view. i generally use veBins2 (rear fuel map) on the top and adv2 (rear timing map) on the bottom...just to see whats going on.

now you can open the veAnalyzer
be sure its on narrowband 02(unless youre using an LC1, in which case, thats another lesson), set your filters (rpm, clt temp, tps range, etc) to whatever part of the log you want to work on.

in the drop down, select afrBins1 or 2. NOT defaultAFR. or you can make your own table (which is what i normally do) but to start, use bins1 or 2. youll see the difference. on the left will be your rear fuel map. when you select 'analyze' a new fuel map will be calculated based on your criteria.

you can then 'accept map' and it will appear on the log screen. (by rolling the mouse over the neew map in veAnalyzer, the effects of the change will be shown). once its on the log screen, select 'save msq as' and put it in your maps folder in ecmspy directory, or wherever you keep all your maps. open it up in ecmspy, copy the rear map to the front cylinder and add 2 points to all of it.

i usually tune the idle areas (via EGO feedback) and filter them out of the veAnalyzer.

burn new map, repeat until the analyzer is making minimal changes (+/-) 2 - 3%.

that should do it.




ps- i might have gotten a couple names of things a lil wrong. i dont have the program open in front of me. i had to do it by bad memory. haha