ECMspy fuel maps strange numbers

[TheFrawg]

Brand new to Buells, purchased a 2005 XB12R with a Jardine full exhaust, K&N filter and EBR "race only" ECM. The bike has some minor issues that I thought I might be able to correct in the fuel maps (detonation on deceleration, rough running first 5-10 minutes of riding, etc).

I purchased a cable off Ebay, downloaded ECMspy and pulled my ECM. Identifies as BUEGB231, which is correct for what the module should be. However, my fuel maps are so different from both "stock" and "race" ECMs I have downloaded as to be unrecognizable.

Is this a custom map someone made and uploaded to the ECM?

I've tried putting the stock GB231 fuel map on it and the bike will barely run, misfires, etc.

As an amateur and not much of a motorhead, I'm tempted to take the bike to a local tuner, but the $400 he charges is awfully steep.

Any help would be appreciated!

Frawg

 

[Negative]

How does It run after the first 5-10 mins of riding??... Serious question...

 

[TheFrawg]

Not perfect, but better. Will still detonate on deceleration (even on some upshifts) and torque below 2500rpm is nonexistent (I know it will be lower, but I have to rev the motor to even launch from stops).

I've done a TPS reset and reset AFV to 100% (was at 105.3%), and the bike will barely idle cold. FYI I'm in Texas and the temps here are 95-100F.

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Set your AFV to 110% report back.
Also did you put your timing maps to stock or just fuel tables?

 

[nemoxb]

I thought ecm spy didn't work with the EBR ecm.... is race use only printed or in graved on the ecm?

 

[TheFrawg]

Using ECMspy, I saved map from what should be an original GB231. Load my EEPROM, load the map from the original GB231, clicked Burn Maps.

Changing AFV to 110% gave an immediate improvement to behavior. Took a very short (around the block) test ride and I could detect only minor detonation. Idle after start was still very low (800-900) and trying to die for the first 30 seconds.

Any explanation of the strange fuel maps in my eeprom? Should I touch them? Is my next step data collection with the laptop in a backpack?

 

[TheFrawg]

It does say "Race Use Only" on it. As far as I can tell I can read and write to it, with both ECMspy and TunerPro (although that is definitely for pros, far too arcane for a novice). Is it not getting correct values because of this?

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Slow down. Youre assuming the "stock" and race maps you downloaded are what they say. Never trust any map you find online. Also sounds like you have not adjusted timing numbers.

Set the AFV to 115% start. Assume youve done the TPS reset properly as well. Now, get on it take it down the highway and back for about 15 minutes ride it as you would any day of the week pretending everything is good. When you return what has your AFV changed to?

 

[TheFrawg]

After the ride AFV shows 105.

And I appreciate the help. I've been pulling my hair out. Sorry if I'm getting ahead of myself.

 

[Theycallmecrash]

How did the ride feel?

So wev established generally you are generally <-- emphasis generally... Adding fuel to your tables. Your AFV is in a good range. I will mention your timing tables one last time, compare your "race fuel map"a general rule of thumb is as long as those numbers are higher you are safe.

What i suspect is your fuel tables are lean and your timing is too advanced leading to detenation until your AFV has had the chance to adjust.... Orrrr.... You just arent use to a Buell engine and it seems ****** up.

 

[TheFrawg]

When I look at the eeprom I pulled from my bike when I first hooked my USB cable up to it, compare it to the supposedly "stock" and "race" eeproms, the timing exactly matches that from the 2005 XB12 race eeprom. The fuel map, as displayed above, is very different. (Can post more screenshots if that's helpful)

The bike still barely idles when cold (which is about 70 degrees in the morning here in Dallas), requiring constant throttle for about 60 seconds or it dies. It tries to idle about 800rpm and dies regularly. After warming up, below 2500rpm torque is very poor, requiring even sedate driving revving to about 2200 before slipping the clutch. If I try to take off slower the engine is going to cough or stutter until it gets to 2500 then it wakes to a burst of energy.

Otherwise it seems okay with still the occasional misfire while under acceleration and intermittent detonation on deceleration. Launches with 2500+ rpm bring the front wheel up if I let out the clutch too fast, even in second gear (which is a harsher shift than I'm used to).

I admit I very new to air cooled V-twins of any breed, having only experience with water cooled straight 4s and triples. Perhaps I am comparing the wrong yardstick here and my bike is making admirable power. If I'm overly critical of my experience feel free to say so.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Have you done yoyr TPS reset, PROCEDURE?
Back idle set screw off, open wide then closed with tension, hit reset onthe computer, turn idle set screw back in 2 turns or so, start engine move idle adjust screw until desired idle is acheived.

Ive heard no mention of doing such a thing so far. Power under 2500rpm yeah cant say mines all that great either, but compare most inline high reving engine, you have no power under 4000rpms. Then hardly any after untill 10,000 plus.

If you dont currebtly have the race fuel tables installed i would put those on. Also detenation on deccel seems unlikely. Are you thinking decel popping is detination?

 

[TheFrawg]

I have done what I believed to be the correct TPS reset. I've read the documentation in the Buell tuning guide V2 and watched this video several times. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i33__Qkvhn4

I might be missing an important step in this procedure. I haven't had my air filter off to watch the butterfly, and in the video I see him grabbing this throttle. The "Reset TPS" button must be done with hands off throttle, is it important enough for me to remove my air filter to check it?

I'm advancing the idle screw back to 5.2-5.5 then warming the bike (manual throttle might be required to keep bike running) and adjusting to 1100 idle. The "mount" for my idle adjust screw is broken loose, so I have to remove left air scoop to adjust it. Didn't seem like an issue.

Your points about high RPM bikes is well taken, the higher revving the bike, the less power it has at low rpm. I may be misstating detonation... yes, loud popping on loaded deceleration I would call detonation. Is it normal behavior on high displacement twins?

I'll try again this coming weekend to load the "race" (GB231) tables again (I'll check again to be sure both fuel and timing tables are being loaded).

A replacement stock ECM is $150 on ebay. Don't want to spend that if I don't have to.

 

[Negative]

Hey crash... I think he needs to tune his idle for a stable closed loop operation and look at his cold start enrichment values before we move into the midrange closed loop portion troubleshooting... I can walk you through this with crash if he's up to it and you'd like to try it... It's good training with ECMspy's operation as well as a basic introduction to datalogging and tuning =)...

I know when I first put my K&N and opened up the airbox on mine it was super mega ultra crazy lean and had a very high AFV with certain days worth of riding and speeds and a low AFV on others (because the bike was using different parts of the fuel maps which were either too rich or too lean and trying to adjust to running in these specific areas which messed up the rest of the map) ... This was peculiar to me but I finally understood why and what I needed to do after watching replays of my datalogs over and over... I'll explain here....

I did a few datalogs to get myself in the ballpark with the different portions of the fuel map (high throttle/low rpm's, middle operating range, high throttle/high rpm's)... Then I focused on trying to perfect the closed loop areas of the map (not the idle closed loop, the normal running area)... After I got that to run a consistent 100ish AFV that stopped my ECM from trying to lean out or richen up the rest of the open loop areas of the map... From there I started datalogging and filtering out each area of the map I wanted to tune (high rpm/low rpm/anywhere outside of normal closed loop)... With a steady closed loop area tuned and set, you can lock the AFV at 100 to keep it from adjusting anything in open loop areas and accurately datalog the open loop parts of the fuel map... After a few runs through VE analyzer to improve the maps you can tune the maps to feel from there... Not hard at all if you take your time... It gets addictive after a while =)...

Think you're game to try any of the above?...

 

[wolfo68]

A replacement stock ecm will not fix your issue, it sounds like a variety of things could be off. I can tell you mine acted like that when I hadn't adjusted the Cam Position Sensor after my rebuild. Other little diddies that could be doing it are the timing maps and the any of the epic randomness you can change in your ecm. I think someone dug into that ecm and changed something they probably shouldn't have. If you're going to pay for a tune go to the tuniversity, Max will help you out and you'll know how to do it for the future.

 

[Negative]

^^^^^much better alternative... And any tuning instructions he could give would totally eclipse anything I could ever dream up... =)

 

[TheFrawg]

Sounds like Tuniversity is my next step. In the meantime, my bike rides okay even if cold idle is rough.

Hopefully last questions... I can't find an O2 sensor in my header or exhaust. My can is Jardine, and I was told by the prior owner (taking this with a grain of salt) that the headers, etc are also aftermarket.

Will the lack of an O2 sensor impede tuning? Or am I too newb to find the O2 sensor that surely exists?

What level of Tuniversity do you guys recommend? $360 Full meal deal if I can afford it?

 

[Theycallmecrash]

The O2 is at the beginging of the rear header pipe, hard to see without removing some things, also removing it rerequires some disassembly and the proper tools.

 

[TheFrawg]

Finally back to revisiting this. After the problem with the O2 sensor (you responded to my other thread Crash), replaced the sensor, still coding above 80mph... I loaded up ecmspy again, convinced my janked-up maps were causing problems.

First red flag is that the O2 sensor was disabled via checkbox on the Diagnostic page. Further, ECM-Config page had all sorts of strange values. Frustrated, I loaded the "factory" XB12 race ecm, BUEGB231 and flashed it. Disabled white wire and muffler control, reset TPS, AFV to 110% and took another test ride.

20 miles later, the bike seems to be running okay, but different. Much more popping on deceleration. AFV set itself to 121.8. Outside air temp was 95 while riding, and most of my miles were at highway speeds.

Air Density Correction showing 88% (seems low) Cold Start Encrichment was at 97% after riding.

Any of this a red flag?

I still want to get a custom tune (or take the Tuniversity course) but still can't afford the expense.