General tuning options and discussion in 2017 (ECMDRoid,ECMSpy etc...)

[lowkey]

Notice: This conversation was taken from another thread, some of the info was removed to streamline to the heart of the conversation. My thought is to get more eyes on the discussion and have people with knowledge contribute for the good of the forum. These quotes are only to get the ball rolling and in no way anything other than a discussion between Cooter and I.:up:

Here is the list of all XB ECM's

BUECB XB9 - model year 2003
BUEGB XB - model year 2004
BUEIB XB - model years 2005-2007
B2RIB XB - model years 2005-2007 (Factory Race ECM)
BUEIC XB - model years 2005-2007 (Japan only)
BUEOD XB - model years 2008 and later
BUEWD XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
BUEYD XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
BUEZD XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
BUE1D XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
B3R1D XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later (EBR Race ECM)
BUE2D XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
BUE3D XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later
B3R3D XB, 1125 - model years 2008 and later (EBR Race ECM)

Of all those, buelltooth only offers a comparable map for BUE2D and BUEGB. Buellmods files are all .txt format. OP has an 07 so BUEIB ECM, no .xpr files available.

I was just genuinely curious if you had access to more files as I can't find them and the "hot new thing" is a bluetooth dongle/ECMDriod, which will leave all but owners of 2 ECM types screwed if they thought they were going to be able to flash a map... (which i'm dealing with helping a fellow forum member with right now)

I have found a way to make compatible .xpr files but can only do so for BUEIB model ECM's because it involves using the bike and that is the ECU I have (involves much more than that). The ones that are profiting off of these dongles should really take the time to put together a database for ALL ECM's or not promote that this is one of the capabilities one could do once they buy said dongle.

In theory I could do all DDFI2 EEPROM files in the .xpr format but I'm not going to risk my ECM to try it!

You just promoted the use of ECMDroid so seemed like you may have the answers I need.

I have nothing to do with that company. I find it a very helpful resource and pretty complete in offering most all of the open source Buell stuff in one location. Same reason I send people to Buellmods.com, twinmotorcycles.com, and now sphdonline.comup...
IMHO, Since their only business is selling the Buelltooth dongles, (And I really don't know how much they are "profiting" at $45 each for a niche motorcycle part), I think they just need to sell a product that works and their business is done. I don't believe the dongles capability of changing fuel maps means they need to have every single firmware map available on their site? It's just a communication device. Everything else on there is free... I like free! I'm just telling people where to get what they asked for. You don't need to buy a dongle.

I feel the sellers of the bluetooth devices have more "skin in the game" than your average forum member to make the missing .xpr files, in the end they will be seeing more sales with these files available won't they? I find it misleading to mention the ability to flash said maps when they currently don't exist, at least publicly right now.

Seriously, in the just the last week(!!) the 'Mr 2 post' people have asked for how-to vids:
​Buell Tuning Guide V2.0
​ECMspy Tuning Guide V1.6 by Steve Turnbull.
TunerPro RT Instruction Manual for Buell Motorcycles by Jared Zuech

Downloads:
EcmDroid
EcmSpy
TunerPro RT
Megalogviewer
XPR Fuel and Timing Maps Extractor
XDF Definition Files for TunerPro
ADX Definition Files for TunerPro

I think the problem is most of the things you listed are no longer being passed around for one reason or another (yes, I know what they are. We don't need to go into detail on each one) Having said that if you have the .xpr file extractor, hook it up! My plan is to get a dummy GMAIL and use the DRIVE account so that the ones listed that are still allowed to be shared can be directly linked, hopefully a sticky on this site!

What I would really like to see is the firmware change to get to open-source (that guy got quiet), so the older versions could be upgraded to BUE2D (at least) without the nightmare I just went through at H-D:mad-new: Lots of those firmwares were "glitchy" (Ahem... AFV values...) hence the superseding to BUE2D.

If you can't find the BUEID fuel map you want, you could have H-D change the firmware to BUE2D. Or ask the sources that have other maps (like Buelltooth)? I've never asked before but maybe they have the capability to change it? or a map they haven't linked too yet? Dunno, but worth an ask....

As far as I'm aware, this is not possible... for example BUEID is DDFI2 and is the latest firmware for that version. BUE2D is the latest firmware for DDFI3

As far as ECMDroid, I tell the new kids it's better for them because it is MUCH easier to use, the safeties are in place to stop them from installing the wrong firmware tune (TunerPro and ECMSpy don't have that) and because even diagnosis and datalogging are easier to do wirelessly to your phone or tablet vs. a laptop and cable in your backpack. Theres less options to adjust, but that's less to mess up too!

All these are opinions. YMMV.

Problem is... from my understanding ECMDroid is flashing complete EEPROM data and not just map data, at least that is the only option I see. .xpr is full EEPROM data as far as I know, I don't see how this is safe for instance if someone got a hold of racemap.xpr file and flashed? Would it pull just the map data or flash the entire EEPROM making the ECM useless.

 

[lowkey]

saved for further use

 

[lowkey]

saved

 

[34nineteen]

LK, thanks for the great post. Might be worth asking a mod to make it
a sticky.

 

[Cooter]

They just sell dongles to communicate with the bike? Why would anyone owe you a free map?

I didn't click all the links, Heck I wouldn't know how to use that stuff if I did! You should probably ask them to get fixed, then you can share them from your /DRIVE account. More places to get them from the better!

You are totally correct, I mis-spoke about firmware versions. You cannot interchange DDFI-2 ('03-'07) and DDFI-3 ('0 firmware. My bad. See! This is why no one should listen to me. Ever!

Describe the difference you mean by "complete EEPROM data" vs. "map data"?
It is my understanding all of these fuel maps are just fuel maps (including .xpr files). and all we can do is swap that info (using ECMDroid, ECMSpy, or TunerPro) into similar ECM's (same firmware)
"complete EEPROM data" includes the firmware (the way H-D does it at the dealer) so it doesn't matter the current firmware version on the ECM, it just overwrites everything including the firmware up to their latest specs. Currently that capability (flashing a complete EEPROM) is getting worked on to be open-source, but not currently available that I know of..

Anyone??


EDIT:
I found this on the Buelltooth site. In huge orange letters no less.... Hahaha Send them an e-mail!

*There are many ECM firmware versions. Tuning files for other versions are made for Buelltooth customers free of charge. Email your request including ECM type, year and model of bike and exhaust system here.

And lowkey, I've got a couple ECM's in the garage I got traded for. Let me go through them. You want a BUEID stock tune? That's gotta be super common right??

 

[AZmidget91]

The complete EEPROM thing is misleading. Both of you are right. I don't know of anyone giving out JUST maps. They are usually what Lowkey is calling a complete EEPROM. Then Cooter is correct in the fact that if we had the ability to flash the actual "complete EEPROM" we could change firmware because the complete EEPROM includes that info. When you are reading your EEPROM and it is showing how many pages have been read, there are a couple more pages that none of the current tuning softwares touch, which include firmware.

There are places to get tunes. Buellmods.com and even Buelltooth.com. Neither of those places came up with any of their tunes, they are just copied from Race ECM's and of tunes purchased from tuners.

I however will be starting to develop my own tunes for specific mufflers, starting this week. I have a stack of mufflers here to make tunes for.

Honestly, this is all a lot of work, and to do it for free, you have to either be taking someone else's work, charge a lot of money for, or be passionate about it. I'm the later, and it causes me a lot of headaches with people having unrealistic goals.

In reality, my goal is to teach people how to tune their bikes themselves. I have developed a method that is being used by a Buell tuner already, and it is very user friendly. I will make videos of how to do this, which is a method that has worked well for me with selling the dongles. When someone has a common question, I just send them the video that answers the question.

 

[lowkey]

Cooter, to your above response, no one "owes" me any maps... what I don't think you are grasping is that people are buying this dongle and downloading ECMDroid, either on recommendation or finding info on their own with the intent to finally be able to adjust fuel/timing for their modified bike. Most buyers are not as lucky as you to have one of the TWO available ECM's that have .xpr files to flash using that setup. Unless they can modify the EEPROM hexadecimal data (who in their right mind would go this route!?!) they can do nothing. I am just pointing this out so it becomes knowledge. Of course those dongles will work with ECMSpy mono, old free ECMSpy, and TunerProRT as well, which is going to be above most users heads IMO. I should have removed that portion of the quoted text as this threads direction was not intended for what should be provided or not... I think you can agree with me this forum is about helping each other and so those maps being offered would help sellers, buyers, and forum members.

"Complete EEPROM data" in my wording would run about 7 pages worth and is the most we currently have access to, when you use ECMDroid and save your EEPROM .xpr that is what you would be getting. If you had just the maps (which I can extract in free ECMSpy), I would get a .msq file which would be safe to merge with the corresponding EEPROM creating a safe "hybrid". I've yet to find a way to pull only map data as .xpr and have no idea if ECMDroid would screw up the ECM if that is only what you flashed... the rest of the data needed for a working bike may be wiped!

Lastly I thank you on the offer of fetching the BUEID but it is not needed. I have all files both race and stock for all xb9 and xb12's from 03-07 and a stock xb12 08 BUE0D EEPROM. I have all the listed software and guides except the .xpr file extractor as well.


AZmidget, I commend your efforts and in no way was it directed at you to "need" to offer said compatible maps, only a strong encouragement for them to be available one way or another. As far as I know you don't have a website and just make/sell on word of mouth. I would very much like to hear more on the tuning method you have devised (publicly here or PM if you prefer) I can assist your efforts if needed.

To all, with this accumulation on the inner workings of ECMDroid my hope was to get a "user guide" compiled to offer on a forum member accessible cloud storage of some sort along with compiled files/maps/software etc... so that we don't get left high and dry when developers move away from the buell community. Mike Cobb's website (xoptimized) was a wealth of info until it went down, I've lurked other buell forums that have turned to a ghost town where amazing tuning conversations have taken place, I fear soon they will be pulled from the internet in the not to distant future as well. We need to learn what we can while we can and push into the future prepared for the new guys buying buells.

 

[AZmidget91]

When I sell a donlge, I try to keep people informed about the downfall of ECMDroid. It is great for checking and clearing codes, simple diagnostics, and flashing the EEPROM. But making a map is not possible on it.

I have the entire xoptiinside website backed up....

I will eventually have a website

 

[njloco]

I understand this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

 

[lowkey]

I will eventually have a website

And we wish you all he best in your endeavors! As a key member of these forums I hope the majority of sales go your way from our members here.

One thing that came up recently by a ECMDroid user was that it lacks the option to read the CPS sensor to do static timing, that would make a nice diagnostic addition in a future update! Also would love to have the option to switch from 10bit to 8bit for the 07 and older bikes.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a dialog going with ECMDroid creator Michel Marti! He must be a wealth of knowledge on the inner workings of the ECM.

 

[lowkey]

And to add some of my findings:

flashing an .msq file over .txt (maps over EEPROM) there is more going on in the background than the visible fuel/timing maps for front and rear cylinder, for instance fan logic has changed... decel popping is gone even though the bottom 2 rows of front/rear fuel tables have either the same values per cell or within 1%, leads me to other things are going on to smooth this out I can't see inside ECMSpy. Engine braking has also all but gone away (should be directly connected to those same bottom 2 rows fuel values), I can see where the option for decel popping suppression can now be used (stock mapping it is to aggressive for engine braking IMO).

 

[34nineteen]

Engine braking has also all but gone away (should be directly connected to those same bottom 2 rows fuel values), I can see where the option for decel popping suppression can now be used (stock mapping it is to aggressive for engine braking IMO).

Should the fuel map have any (negligible) effect on engine braking? I'd attribute that as a mechanical property, that should occur regardless of what fueling system is utilized.

 

[Cooter]

You're already over my head:upset: I've never had a problem flashing any fuel map onto a matching (same firmware) ECM using ECMDroid. I don't even know the difference between .xpr, .msq or .txt files as far as what the different info is on them. Flashing a map using ECMDroid does change the ECM settings like fan logic as well if that helps?

I agree ECMDroid's "downfall" is that its hard to build a map from scratch with it, but that is also it's blessing.
I only recommend it to people that say 'I just bought my Buell, it pops on decel when I put on a Jardine'. There is no reason for that guy to build a map from scratch. I also recommend it to someone who wants to just clear codes and TPS re-set and earlier bike, but not to someone who put cams or a 1250 kit on. I believe that covers 95% of the typical Buell owner. If that person has a version of ECMSpy, you know 1000 questions are coming that have no bearing on putting an existing map on that otherwise stock bike. They can also make their bike inop with TunerPro and ECMSpy because they don't have the safety built in like ECMDroid does. It's like the Fisher Price version of a laptop, less options mean less options to screw up:eagerness:

That's great news from AZ! You've been quiet for awhile so I knew you were busy with something:angel: I agree it's a matter of passion for everyone involved with Buells. This is a terrible business model to try and make and $$ in an out of production, niche, motorcycle brand. How are you building custom tunes? I'm dabbling in that as well, but not at your level for sure. Are you wideband O2 dyno tuning? Datalogging with the stock narrowband O2? I would LOVE to come by and see the process (of course only if you want to share, but I'll bring beer!)

Selling dongles, is just selling a part that communicates with the bike. You can use the dongle to install any map you find that works, using whatever tuning program you wish. I don't believe AZ or even Buelltooth.com promises the perfect map supplied for someones bike (for free even) with or without a purchase.

34nineteen: Engine braking is very much a fuel tuning thing. Fuel on decel will minimize compression braking, where cutting fuel will maximize the compresssion braking effect.

 

[34nineteen]

It's like the Fisher Price version of a laptop, less options mean less options to screw up

And maybe thats they way to market it... if someone buys the dongle/tablet... maybe preload some maps to give someone some stuff to play with.

I'd like to see a "hot weather" map for our bikes out here in AZ and other hot climates that maybe fatten the mix a bit more than normal to help combat the high summer ambient temps.

Get on it Cooter.... or I'm drinking all of your beer. You have been warned! :very_drunk:

 

[Cooter]

That's my point. They do offer free maps as a courtesy to 'play with'. They do not have every map ever made in the history of Buell. Even if you BUY a tune from someone, you will still need someway to burn it to your ECM. For the beginner (like me), I would recommend an easy/safe program to learn (ECMDroid), and a wireless connection (Bluetooth).

34:19:
IMO, A 'Hot weather' map is unnecessary, unless you are on the ragged edge of overheating already. Anything other than a stock tune will be fat enough. If you are overheating (pinging) during the summer, we can try to diagnose why.

Beer! Man, it was HOT on Friday...108*!

 

[lowkey]

EDIT: didn't see that cooter explained it but this will elaborate a bit more on the subject and make it more clear.

Should the fuel map have any (negligible) effect on engine braking? I'd attribute that as a mechanical property, that should occur regardless of what fueling system is utilized.

less fuel under decel = higher AFR (in excess of 18.0-1) = RPM dropping MUCH harder = possible locking up rear wheel on down shift...

My bike was just short of skidding on downshifts now it is like a slipper clutch.

Try for yourself, add 2% fuel to the bottom 2 rows of fuel cells across all RPM. Do 40mph in 5th gear and see how slowly your bike looses speed compared to normal with no throttle input.

I believe it is a combination of compression an no longer being a power stroke (no fuel burn to force piston down, next piston cycle same deal = stopping crank mass from rotation that much sooner).

 

[lowkey]

I'd like to see a "hot weather" map for our bikes out here in AZ and other hot climates that maybe fatten the mix a bit more than normal to help combat the high summer ambient temps.

It is still unclear if this is possible or not on a narrow band 02 sensor, last tab in ECMSpy you can set values for the sensor. Mike Cobb says it is (xoptimized) Gunther says it is not (key developer behind ECMSpy), why is the data values able to be modified if not then? Still unclear... moving forward I plan to adjust these values and compare datalogs against stock values to see where EGO values go.

With a wideband in place it is possible to adjust to the AFR you desire.

Alternatively you could dyno tune to desired AFR's and disable the O2 sensor, install a barometric pressure sensor enabling the ECM to adjust for altitude, temps etc...

 

[mosquito]

As a new Buell XB owner and someone who is new to tuning my bike wth a computer, I just want to say I heartily welcome this kind of discussion! There is a lot of information on the forum and some disinformation too but it's spread over many threads so it is very confusing. Thank you to lowkey and AZ! If you guys can figure out how to charge for your services helping me learn to tune up my hot rod, I'd be willing to pay. There is a lot of potential in that bike and if I can get it to idle, pull smoothly down low and not fart and pop on overrun, I'd be a happy old Lightning rider!

 

[lowkey]

Mosquito, no problem if you google search "square idle" you will be rewarded with knowledge from a previous generation of buell ECM tuners, doing this step along with race maps makes a great starting point to fine tune your bike from. 2007 and older bikes you will want ECMSpy (old free version), TunerProRT or ECMSpy Mono to fine tune your maps. 2008 and later bikes can only be tuned buy TunerProRT and ECMSpy Mono.

K&N and/or exhaust? Race maps will take care of the popping on overrun.

If you haven't already bought some type of deutsch connector (bluetooth or cable bike communication link) may I suggest PMing AZ?

 

[AZmidget91]

The reason Cobb said it was ok to use narrowband, was because he already had base tunes. Once you tune with wideband to get the base tune, you can rely on narrowband for driveability tuning.

I have tried just using narrowband for tuning in the past and just kept going around in circles with the tune.

I am using dual widebands, only have the front installed for now, just got the one for the rear yesterday. I am using the PLX SM-AFR and the DM-6 display. The SM-AFR will work properly as a narrowband for the Buell ECM, I am logging the wideband separately into ECMSpy Mono. Still figuring it out though, there isn't much information about connecting that wideband to the PC.



I can tell this will be addicting, already without datalogging I see some huge lean spots in my map.

Cooter, I told Aaron to let me know when you're in town so we could grab some beers. If I knew you were here Friday you should have came by the house, was installing the wideband and drinking all night.