Hammer Performance Cams in XB9

[theMelvster6]

I've sent my heads off to Hammer Performance for head work, but now I'm thinking about doing cams as well. Anybody use cams from Hammer Performance? What options do I have without doing much, or any case clearancing?

 

[user_deleted]

would think this hammer outfit would be the ones to ask.

 

[theMelvster6]

I read a lot about the Red Shift 585 cams. How much case clearancing do they need? Any?

 

[WIGGLE2]

would think this hammer outfit would be the ones to ask.

[up]
Call them or email them. I don't THINK clearencing is a big deal from what research I've done.

 

[WIGGLE2]

You'd probably want to call them anyways, so they can set up your heads with the proper springs for your cams, etc.

 

[turboraven]

Dan will set you straight. He did a full engine build for me this past winter.

In prior conversations with Dan, I believe he said that you can do the 585 cam w/o clearancing or rocker upgrades. Just cam and spring kit.

 

[WIGGLE2]

Did you do ever do a baseline dyno pull before? It sure would be nice to see a before/after on the same dyno with same bike.

 

[theMelvster6]

I called Dan this morning, he said anything approaching .580 lift and I need to look into upgrading to roller rockers. I really like the appeal of the moderate .560 cams they do for xl's and still keep stock lifters, push rods, and rockers. He is going to talk with his partner, which I'm assuming is Aaron Wilson to see if they'll index a set of the .560 cams to correct timing marks and such for the xb. I'm already getting the heads done, but my budget is thin...another grand for cams, rockers, pushrods is out of the question.

 

[WIGGLE2]

Do you really think they'd be worth the investment? (I'm just asking, not telling). I am work now, so I have no notes here, but the stock XB cams are no joke. They are the exact same spec as a Screaming Eagle cam, but again, I'm not sure which one. I would for sure want some kind of reassurance before dumping that kind of money.

 

[theMelvster6]

From what I've been reading XB cams are the same as the xl SE.551's...good lift but fairly mild duration and timing. The SE.536's have less total lift but are a more aggressive cam in duration and timing than the .551's. then The Hammer Perf .560 cams improve upon the SE.536...Giving a ball park estimate based on the dyno results...the Hammer Perf cams should show an 8-10hp increase over the .551s and should work good with the head work they are doing. A set of their .560 cams are $325 and should be friendly with stock lifters, push rods, and rockers. The heads will be prepped with the heavier valve springs to support it. So I think they would be a good match with the head work hammer performance is doing and make a little better use of the bigger valves.

 

[WIGGLE2]

That sounds good Melvster! The stock XB cams are like 244*@.053" IIRC. Not sure what LS/IC is anymore though. I'd be interested in looking at these specs. Are they on their site? I hope you're able to show some results of your efforts later on, as well as how it is to tune, etc.!

 

[theMelvster6]

yeah, I believe the specs for the cams are on their website. I never did get baseline numbers. I wish I would have...I'll try to keep my build updated. I'll document and take photos and do another thread on it. I'm going to attempt to use the xb12 TB and header...lol With headwork and cams I'm hoping it lets it breath...Serious Data logging will be necessary. I'm going to start of with an xb9 map that is already killer rich for the stock setup. Then after my heat cycling, I'll take it for a little ride and monitor my AFR's via wideband setup. Then let he ecm adjust the afv initially to get with in a safe limit...even if it's somewhat rich to start. Then basically begin the Datalog process and swap between the rear and front cylinders to hopefully get a decent fuel map and just keep improving on it until I get it dialed in. Hopefully it will all play nice with each other and get it dialed in without too much headache.

 

[theMelvster6]

SE551/XB cams
Duration:
249 / 249

Max Lift:
.551" / .551"

TDC Lift:
.197" / .122"

Timing (open / close)
INT. 25 / 44
EXT. 59 / 10

HP560
Duration:
I:256 / E:266

Max Lift:
.560" / .560"

TDC Lift:
I:.228" / E:.220"

Timing (open / close)
I:28 / 48
E:58 / 28

 

[turboraven]

Did you do ever do a baseline dyno pull before? It sure would be nice to see a before/after on the same dyno with same bike.

Sadly I did not. I did all the tuning via Max@Tuniversity (laptop in backpack). I'm sure with my super tall gearing and 280 rear, the numbers were 8-10 less than an otherwise stock bike. This time around I will be doing dyno time. Really hoping to see over 100rwtq and 125+rwhp after all said an done.

 

[WIGGLE2]

Thanks for the specs Melvster! I didn't think the stock centerline was that tight...they have more overlap than I was thinking. The Lobe seperation and intake centerline are virtually identical though. (99.5 I/C on stock vs 100 on the HP560 and 102 LS on stock vs 102.5 on the HP560). That extra duration will move your powerband up a GOOD 5-600 RPM. Too bad we can't turn these things a bit more RPM in stock trim....torque never peaks with stock cams....IF you'd turn that thing another 500 rpm, that would be sweet! BUT!!! I DON'T recommend it! The TB swap and a set of 12 headers is where I was planning on going if I ever do the big bore deal. I will run a set of Deans (Keda Designs) headers though. (I am actually doing the exhaust later this summer/over winter depending on budget....but doing it without overkill so if I ever do the bb kit, I will have enough header). Honestly...it's the tuning part that is taking away my drive to do it....I get the 'tuning' part....it's the computer required to do it that I am totally illiterate with!! I am interested in following both your's and turboravens threads!!

 

[theMelvster6]

I could go bigger on the cams, but that would cost more money to set it up properly. I think HP560's would be a good compromise for cost and performance. I keep hearing the tuning part is the real headache...but I enjoy that meticulous sh**...when all my parts get here, I'll start a new thread with pictures and progress updates. I'm sure I'll have hours and hours into the data logging. Maybe one day I'll put it on the dyno for a real tune. on a good note, I pulled my cam cover off and was pleasantly surprised at how minimal the wear is. At almost 20k miles...not too bad!

 

[WIGGLE2]

I agree with you after seeing some numbers. It IS a decent compromise I believe. As long as they aren't playing around with the base circle, it should be a pretty straightforward deal. Even if they did drop the base circle, (and I'm guessing they have), as long as they know from experience how much it's dropped, a longer pushrod by .050" is probably all that you'd need. I have NO computer experience at all....I get the tuning aspect and have a pretty decent grasp on what THAT takes, but actually getting in there and making the changes is where I'd be done! That's cool that you like it though! I feel you're on the right track as far as data-logging, then making adjustments.....dyno tuning for max power, RARELY makes for decent 'driveability' (or 'rideability?). The dyno MIGHT be a good place to get your 'base' map, then tweak that with data-logging from there? I am sure at 20K miles, it DOES look nice. If you've taken care of it, it should.

 

[theMelvster6]

The good news, XB Cams should already have the smaller .920" base circles vs stock xl .970" base circles...I have yet to measure for 100% surety, but that should be no big deal at all as far as push rod length and such is concerned. And yes...Amsoil every 2000-2500miles on an oil change. And I ride pretty hard.

 

[WIGGLE2]

That is great! I am sure the guys you're working with there at Hammer can get you through it, no problem. This isn't their first rodeo by far. I see some of these posts with stuff destroyed at 8-10k miles and such.....Sure, things go wrong SOMETIMES! But I strongly believe MOST of it is just plain owner neglect. And some of the dumb-ass mods I've seen!.....REALLY leads me question whether they should even OWN a bike?!! Lol! So, yeah...I'm sure you're in good shape with your deal there.....take your time, take ANY advise Hammer gives you, and ENJOY!!

 

[theMelvster6]

Just to confirm...BUELL XB stock cams do have .920" base circles. I actually measured .924" but .004" doesn't make a whole lot of difference. I also found out, XB cams do not have a true .551 total lift. Apparently the HD based their lift off of 1.65 rocker ratio...so if you do the math using a 1.254 for total vertical height of the cam you get (1.254 - .920 = .334) then you take the difference of that (.334 x 1.65 = .5511) that is where they get their total lift of .551" +/- .0001 depending how accurate your micrometer is. So in actuality, The XB cams are really only something like .543" total lift using stock ratio rockers (.334 x 1.625 = .54275)...The Hammer Performance cams are actually based off of 1.625 rockers so total lift on the HP IMPACT 560 cams is a true .560" lift on stock rockers...in case anyone is curious.