Motorcycle Cornering vs. Drumming vs......? Just a ramble.

[redliner172]

I have been riding for about 2 years total now and can fairly say that I can corner better than most my age...not all of course...meaning I can get rid of the strips. With that being said: Ever notice how there are so many different techniques to accomplish the same goal?

For example:

Keith Code says to downshift coming into the turn while blipping the throttle to prevent rear wheel lockup

Find your reference points then look into the corner BEFORE you countersteer towards the apex

Then get on the throttle asap to shift 10% of the weight to the rear tire and gradually add more throttle as you stand the bike up during the exit.

A proven technique right? even though many road racers use it, people will still argue and say its garbage that you should body steer and put your weight on the inside peg then gas it no sooner than the apex.

I have been drumming professionally and teaching long enough to realize that every discipline has an endless amount of ways to accomplish the same goal.

However, I do believe that while you maybe able to body steer your way through corner and still wear out your strips, the technique can only take you so far and you will need to change in order to achieve your maximum potential. Does anyone else encounter this or do things differently that yield similar results?

 

[icepop77]

I was taught to contersteer when I took the MSF course. I firmly believe it's the right way to corner. Body steering in "handling" situations can be exhausting and it's a slow way to make the bike react the way you want. Because it's slower, people feel it's more precise. I do both, I body steer when it's appropriate (like on slow, lazy turns) and I countersteer when it's appropriate (tight turns and switchbacks).

Motorcycles handle better when they are accelerating and when the suspension is under load. As soon as you are set for the turn you're supposed to give just enough throttle to load the suspension before the apex and then roll on throttle as you exit the apex. Again, this is what they taught me at the MSF basic rider's course. Should be pretty elementary.

 

[bardo688]

body steer (turning handlebars) when your going slow...accelerate into corner counter steering and leaning......right?
Havent taken MSF yet

 

[redliner172]

MSF really doesnt hit on counter steering in depth. Buy Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II. Not only does he tell you that body steering is wrong, he will go into the physics of it and how it relates to the bikes technology and your own skill. Its great. With that being said there are many other great books such as the one from Lee Parks that has some similarities yet are way different.

bardo688: body steering is using the weight of the body only to steer the bike as in lean your body and the bike will go in that direction. If even at 10mph you "turn" the handlebars right, you will fall to the left cause thats how the steering geometry for ALL two wheeled vehicles work including bycycles. Counter-steering is pressing forward on the right handlebar to go right and visa versa.

BUT like I said many people have many different ways to achieve the same goal.

I just think its crazy how there are so many different ways to do the same thing. Each one having their plusses and minuses.

 

[bardo688]

IDK what i do but i turn [confused]haha
I gots sum lernin to do
Everyride i learn something new
I thought "sitting isnt a sport, buells where ment to be hung off of"

 

[gear2078]

I have been thinking this one over quite persistently over the last couple days and I was even considering taking my question to The Man himself. I have read endlessly on technique and I have also self taught.

From what I read, the main purpose of leaning your body is to reduce the lean of the bike and stay away from the edge of the tire. In my own personal experience, Buells are less stable without body lean than with in hard corners. I suspect that the higher center of gravity of the rockets helps to hold the bikes down in the turn whereas a Buell needs to be muscled in. If I don't body lean and rely only on counter steer, it seems that I get more head shake/wobble in my arms and steering head than if I am hanging off the front edge, especially if I hit a good dip in the road. I theorize that counter steering in hard corners may promote a torsional lift on the front tire and risk a decrease in traction- only my theory and I'm open to input.

The biggest argument I read against body lean was a statement along the lines of "if you are cornering fast enough to need body lean, you should be on a track" and I'm sure they are right.

My experience may differ from others' due to me only weighing 140#, I have had similar problems with four wheelers and snowmobiles trying to tilt in hard cornering despite how hard I lean.

I rode with four other bikes yesterday and I used body lean/body position to set the bike up for the curves, then fine tuned my line with slight counter steer. I kept pace with a Triumph Triple and another rocket(I don't know a whole lot about rockets since the last one I had was an '86) the whole time with ease having to slow down through some of the corners to maintain a comfortable distance. The other two bikes were trailing at their own pace a considerable distance behind me. They were not using body lean at all and made minor complaints about drifting and wind gusts pushing them around, I experienced none of this. I did experience rear tire torque drift on an XB12R at Sturgis, but the CR seems to handle much better hands down. To be fair, my suspension was set up by a professional Ducati race bike tuner and that probably helps the bike remain stable.

Anyone have any constructive perspective?

 

[gear2078]

Bardo, I think you have a point. Isn't that a quote off of a Buell ad campaign? I forgot to include that I don't body steer at low speeds, just counter steer.

 

[Macbuell]

Yeah my MSF class teacher in passing talked about how pushing with your right hand makes you go right. I was really confused by this until I was actually on the bike.

Redliner, I have never heard to put weight on the inside peg, but it makes sense. Can not wait to try it out. My strips are too big on my 190, my excuse is that there is still lots of sand and salt on my northern MI roads.

 

[icepop77]

I don't know, my MSF instructor railed hard on countersteering. Maybe I was lucky. I feel like we did a solid hour of just countersteering. When I talk about the MSF class, the first thing I think of is countersteering so I guess the guy really drove it home.

 

[bardo688]

Yep thats the other part of it...you dont need to wave your hands are doing more important things is the other part

 

[gear2078]

So nobody who has at least taken an advanced motorcycle class chooses to add their .02? No racers? No Buell engineers?

 

[Builtdesign]

I'm not an engineer yet, nor have I taken the advanced course. But years of boarding sports have taught me the art of making the right line in a curve. I personally don't think that speed should necessarily determine counter-steering vs. body steering (unless we're talking 10mph and under, where counter-steering is essential) The angle of a turn (being acute, medium, or obtuse) should be the determining factor of your form in the turn.

For example, imagine you're going straight @45mph, ahead is an acute R. angled turn requiring you to slow and while doing this you're already shifting your weight to the right. Now this is not considered body-steering, b/c your just adjusting before hand. Entering the turn you counter-steer and adjust your weight out further depending on your speed. Then roll on the throttle in your exit. So you've actually both counter-steered and body-steered together in one turn. You counter-steer to enter the turn, and body-steer to hold the bike at the appropriate angle. Therefore they go hand-in-hand. By body-steering you affectively hold the bike in the angle in which you have caused it to lean by counter-steering. Using only one of these would less effective.

In my opinion, the only time to body-steer the bike is in a long obtuse turn. This is where you can better control your line in the curve b/c you slowly adjust your weight to hold against the centrifugal forces the bike is pushing against you. The is painfully obvious on nubbies as you watch them try and counter-steer these type of curves as they go back and forth from the inside and outside of their lane.
And in contrasted the only time to rely solely on counter-steering would be in a coned police riders course with super tight weaving.

 

[Builtdesign]

I suppose there's also the subject of steering with the front tire vs. the rear tire. But that is something you would only want to work on at the track.
Being a Gary McCoy fan I prefer rear wheel steering

 

[gear2078]

Thanks for the input Builtdesign. I'm curious what would actually be considered body steering since it seems what I'm doing doesn't quite qualify.

 

[RiderX]

body steering doesn't exist, weather you know it or not you are actually counter steering the bike. because you transfer eight or lean your body it doesn't mean you are body steering. during slow speeds there is a brief moment of counter steering involved to get the bike to lean, then you steer the bike through to corner.

i raced boats for years and they react almost the same way, blip the throttle to set up then power through the corner, you can feel it hook up and drive through.

not a bike racer, not a seasoned pro, took some classes and my dad used to teach riding classes so alots been handed down. i ride by feel and know what i do to get the bike to react.

 

[Baal]

I'll try to participate more when I'm not on an iPod. I noticed the same as the OP, in that I have to ride the front of the Lightning mor. Than the upright riding position would suggest. It steers much easier and more responsively if I'm leaned forward, with my arms bent and a light grip on the bars. That's not body steering; it's getting my body in position to not interfere with steering.

 

[gbalias]

im all backwards then.....

i race supermoto so the technique is funky.


ill even catch myself sliding the rear tire out on the buell sometimes. haha. theres this one turn in particular on my way home from work........hehe