One more time on ECM

[cossack84]

ASAP I will try to log and see myself what's going on my engine. According to what I read narrowbands, are working moving ECM to constantly supply the engine with alternatively leaner and reacher mixture as its signal is too easily running away abruptly from 0.45 V (14.7 AFR).

Yes thats how I understand them to work too. On mine looks like O2 target voltage is set to 0.493V and can be adjusted. Not 100% sure what you mean by "signal is too easily running away abruptly from 0.45 V ".

I am wondering if the up and down AFR is not the cause of the slightly fluctuating idle and the differences between engine pushes, almost cycle by cycle, when in closed loop. But, it is also true that narrowband is used almost everywhere and usually you can't feel any misfire or so...

Up and down AFR could be a symptom of fluctuating idle, however I doubt narrow band sensor is the cause of that.

 

[cossack84]

DDFI-3 can log the data via pins 1 and 33 on the gray connector. You'll have to add the wires to the harness by taking the connector apart and adding them in by hand. It's a bit of a pain to do, I've done it a couple of times.
That said, the ecm is limited and CANNOT (at this time and I doubt it ever will) use the wideband outputs to auto-adjust the ecm or run off of them. It (the ecm) will only use the narrowband signal.

Does the earlier bikes have a spare analog too? Say 2004?

 

[d_adams]

Does the earlier bikes have a spare analog too? Say 2004?

No, they do not.

 

[osvaldo]

"Downgrade after 2007 " ? What chu talkin bout ?

Hi Outlaw,

I forgot asking you about max RPM in 2008+ Buell XB 12; is it the older 6700 RPM or newer 7100 as European ones ?

 

[osvaldo]

Not 100% sure what you mean by "signal is too easily running away abruptly from 0.45 V ".

Hi cossack84,

I am just badly trying to say, may be the obvious, that if you go slightly up or down from 14.7 O2 voltage output go quickly close to 0 or 0.9, so it seems practically impossible to read AFRs not close enough to 14.7. (once more please excuse me for my English)

 

[osvaldo]

Big step forward

Hi Buellers,

last Saturday I received my Buelltooth from the States.
Probably more or less like a monkey, but I have been able to do some data loggings with ECMdroid, transfer them to MegaLogViewer and even trying to read the EEPROM with TunerPro.
In the last case in not sure at all what I was seeing, but in general I feel a bit less overwhelmed especially because I started to understand some of the values we can see in MLV readings.
As you can imagine a really big batch of questions aroused, but I will try to solve myself most of them, one, to try to not iper-annoying you, two, because at the moment many of them would be nonsense questions.
Anyway here are a couple more:

Reading TPS log in MLV with the bike stopped after a ride and engine idling (untouched throttle) I saw TPS voltage not steady as I was expecting but constantly fluctuating between 0.420 and 0.445. (RPM ranging 975-1198, IAC Pos 55-66, CLT (C°) 185-191).
Similar TPS movement can be seen live in ECMdroid, but in degrees.

Is that normal, do the 'good vibrations', or there is maybe something wrong?

I think I may expect also to get tighter RPM idling range on a well working bikes; am I right?

 

[Outlaw]

Osvaldo
I'm not sure about the max rpm level, my 09Xb12ss has an IDS controller so I think they may adjust that. I'm sure others may know.

 

[osvaldo]

Hi guys,

while waiting for some helpful man answering my previous questions and spending full days reading trough the forum, as well I have been doing many logging and analyzed them through MLV.
Also with TunerPro and ECMdroid I have been trying to improve my knowledge on how the ECM is working.
Net steps forward but the way seems to be very long.
I discovered few things that does not seem to be either right at all, nor logical.

• Looking at pw 1 and 2, rear cylinder is most of the time leaner than the front.


• Sometime injector are not going together, I mean one pw is much higher than the other.


• With the bike idling with untouched throttle sometimes you can see pulses from Acc. correction (up to 4.5 or so)


• In the meantime TPD is floating between 3.5 - 4.5.

Are all those things normal? If you are interested I can try to post some windows from MLV.

Aside I can tell you EGO is taking away a lot of fuel, down to 65 and so AVF settled to 75.
My bike is full stock less I blocked open the muffler valve, so must be there something wrong, even here we are living all day above 80 F°.
Anyway the bike is not running very bad, but I tested resetting AFV to 100% and limiting it from 90 to 110% and she is pushing much more cleanly and strongly. (Dyno butt will not tell you how much Hp, or AFR, but it can tell you if the bike is running as you think she should. Is up to you to think correctly... )

Looking for your welcome comments!

Nice trips.

 

[cossack84]

Hi cossack84,

I am just badly trying to say, may be the obvious, that if you go slightly up or down from 14.7 O2 voltage output go quickly close to 0 or 0.9, so it seems practically impossible to read AFRs not close enough to 14.7. (once more please excuse me for my English)

Yes you are correct. Once AFR deviates much from 14.7 the narrow band sensor won’t read very accurately. Hence the use of wide band.

 

[cossack84]

Mine is the same with pw1 being larger number then pw2. Not buy much, but still larger.

Post a screen grab of it

That’s not right.

That does sound right. Mine stays rock solid.

Not sure how new bikes are, is there a idle control valve? 2004 just has idle screw that determines minimum throttle position.

 

[osvaldo]

Mine is the same with pw1 being larger number then pw2. Not buy much, but still larger.

Post a screen grab of it

That’s not right.

That does sound right. Mine stays rock solid.

Not sure how new bikes are, is there a idle control valve? 2004 just has idle screw that determines minimum throttle position.

Hi cossack84,

yes on DDFI 3 system there is a step motor opening an extra air passage (IAC).
Up to now I am not sure why it is also moving around a lot, as it seem to be governed by engine temperature only.

• Looking at pw 1 and 2, rear cylinder is most of the time leaner than the front.


• Sometime injector are not going together, I mean one pw is much higher than the other.


• With the bike idling with untouched throttle sometimes you can see pulses from Acc. correction (up to 4.5 or so)


• In the meantime TPD is floating between 3.5 - 4.5.

I am having an hard time trying to discover the logics behind ECM decision, as the few useful info’s are spreaded one by one all over the net.
I love my Buell, but it seems that Eric's guys left a lot of job to be done by costumers.
As I enjoy learning and put my hands 'developing' my bike I am not so unhappy with that, but I hate they (ISD?) did not supply us with full info over their DDFI systems.
Really I don't think they are so good to worth keeping them secret.

Looking for everybody opinions, up to the next.

 

[Outlaw]

My Buells run great, I think people dick around with them too much and get in over their head when it comes to programming. I let IDS tune it for my mods and have no issues. I think most issues are individual bikes that are not mechanically sound.

 

[osvaldo]

My Buells run great, I think people dick around with them too much and get in over their head when it comes to programming. I let IDS tune it for my mods and have no issues. I think most issues are individual bikes that are not mechanically sound.

Hi Outlaw,

IMO so-so.
You may be right when we talk about aftermarket exhaust, air filter and other modifications.
Myself too I locked open exhaust valve and removed cat (forgotten to saying it before)
That was not just for playing around but to try to lower down engine temperature, that is really to high just cruising.
I got just a bit better on that, but mainly got an unexpected improvement on idle stability and a much cleaner progression trough RPM.
For sure also some bikes are not mechanically sound, but there are too many people feeling they can have better performance from their Buell to be quite sure that everything is at the top.
Also I will said that everybody of us may give a different meaning to run great, and probably on Europe model 2008+ the situation is a bit worst.
Anyway, sorry to be repetitive, I am not unhappy at all, but I know 'the girl can do more'...

 

[d_adams]

Keep in mind that the stock setup was heavily restricted by the EPA. European models are even more restricted than the US versions due to the noise and smog/pollution laws over there.

 

[user_deleted]

My Buells run great, I think people dick around with them too much and get in over their head when it comes to programming. I let IDS tune it for my mods and have no issues. I think most issues are individual bikes that are not mechanically sound.

word Josh!
as these bikes age gracefully it's now critically important to lube and adjust ALL cables....check for cable fraying at the perch/switchgear housing.....checking all fasteners for tightness....and servicing the fuel pump.
seems the tech geeks care more about dazzling each other with unlimited ecm jibberish and bloviating nonsense.

 

[osvaldo]

Keep in mind that the stock setup was heavily restricted by the EPA. European models are even more restricted than the US versions due to the noise and smog/pollution laws over there.

Hi di_adams,

yes, probably it has been not at all an easy task on our air cooled big cubic inch V twin 2 valves push rod engines.
That's what makes matchless our engines personality, and I did not intended to be offensive regarding their job.
Just I am suffering a lot trying to learn about EFIs as many info needs almost to be 'stolen'.
My be is that I am a 'carburetor guy' and when, long time ago:sorrow:, I studied about engines all sort of info were easly available to everybody.
It was a simpler, well-established technology that made no sense to keep secret.
Perhaps even as time goes on, the economic system also prefers to have ever more ignorant consumers about what they buy,
But these are slightly off-topic considerations, excuse me...

 

[osvaldo]

word Josh!
as these bikes age gracefully it's now critically important to lube and adjust ALL cables....check for cable fraying at the perch/switchgear housing.....checking all fasteners for tightness....and servicing the fuel pump.
seems the tech geeks care more about dazzling each other with unlimited ecm jibberish and bloviating nonsense.

Hey lunaticfringe,

I can tell you my bike is ok were she needs to be.
I assure you that my desire is not to be able to fill my mouth with big words about electronic injections, but only to humbly learn.
I'm from the old school and I like to get to know those who carry my ass around, to be able to take care of them.
I am absolutely sure that the behavior of my bike can be improved by working on the ECM and I will try to follow this path.
If I look at my datalogs, for what I can understand now, I see many things that make no sense and that must forcibly make the engine work whimsically.
I also want to understand if they are intrinsic limits of the system or of its development.
Do I deserve to be criticized for this?

 

[user_deleted]

Hey Osvaldo,

not specifically criticizing you in the least. being a new board member you clearly have no context or historical perspective on these endless mind-numbing "tuning threads" that inherently go nowhere...hold no intrinsic value for 99% of board members...and accomplish little to nothing. they're traditionally filled with techno jibberish that is beyond the comprehension level of most board members and admittedly, myself included.
my philosophy and position has consistently been this during 25 years of Buell ownership:
there is no hidden SUBSTANTIAL power and performance gains lurking within the factory ECM.
there is enhanced rideability and enjoyment obtainable thru a simple one-and-done proven map installation.
get the bike in perfect operational condition then religiously maintain it.
if you have the equipment...desire...capability and patience.....install a simple generic proven "race map" and ride the bike.
if one feels tepid or unsure of their ability to perform the above then simply follow Josh's lead and have an outfit such as IDS do it for you.
my comments above based on 2 specific things:
1-watching this board become clogged with endless 17 page "tuning threads"
2-receiving countless PM's....emails....phone calls thru the years from inveterate souls now looking for advice and counsel on how to resolve their "bricked ecm" dilemmas.

 

[njloco]

I agree^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^, and not because I've been a Buell owner for a long time. I've only been here for a few years now but, I've noticed that the only thing that messing around inside the ECM brings is, a smoother ride, a little more HP. Maybe because I'm old school and before buying my first Buell I had not been riding for quite a few years but, I like the way my bikes run. The only thing I had a problem with was when my Ully would first warm up it would cough a little for the first couple of minutes of riding from a stop and take off, now with the new iridium plugs installed, that has stopped.
With the 07 SS, I have a Buell tooth and followed the instructions from the above mentioned Co. and still get a bit of back firing when engine braking but, it runs great so why mess with it and besides, they do not have a map for a Special Ops muffler.
Good luck to you guys, you spend so much time on it, I hope you get want you want.
I'll also admit that I know very little about messing with maps.

 

[cossack84]

Hi cossack84,

yes on DDFI 3 system there is a step motor opening an extra air passage (IAC).
Up to now I am not sure why it is also moving around a lot, as it seem to be governed by engine temperature only.



View attachment 12117

View attachment 12118

View attachment 12119

I am having an hard time trying to discover the logics behind ECM decision, as the few useful info’s are spreaded one by one all over the net.
I love my Buell, but it seems that Eric's guys left a lot of job to be done by costumers.
As I enjoy learning and put my hands 'developing' my bike I am not so unhappy with that, but I hate they (ISD?) did not supply us with full info over their DDFI systems.
Really I don't think they are so good to worth keeping them secret.

Looking for everybody opinions, up to the next.

Here is a snip it showing how PW1 and PW2 are little different from each other. Looks to be about same amount as your bike.