Primary - Gears? ChainClutch?

[frankiefilth]

Hi All.. New member here, first post.. I need some opinions to consider, please. I've searched and read through various threads, but can't seem to find a problem similar enough to mine. I'll try to keep it as simple and short as I can..

I put my bike away for the winter last year, stored in a heated room in a buddy's warehouse, and it was running just fine. It's a 2007 XB9sx with about 10,000mi on it and I've owned it since 2009, never had any problems. The first day I took it out this season, I noticed (aside from a nasty oil leak) an unfamiliar sound: When I put the bike into gear, it immediately makes a "whirring, kinda harsh, sshhhhhhsshhh" sound in the primary. I decided to park it, as I had to wait for time to do rocker cover gaskets and fork seals anyway.

So here I am, gaskets done, seals done, oil change and fresh gear oil.. Still making noise. Did some searching online and came to the conclusion that it must be the chain tension, so I made adjustments.. Tried it tight, tried it loose, and everything in between; still making the noise. So I figured maybe it's "just one of those Harley things", perhaps something that develops over time. But now I'm not so sure, as there's an even more alarming noise that I assume must be related:

When I'm out on the road (especially once the bike has warmed up quite a bit) it sounds like someone would've thrown a handful of nuts and bolts (maybe some marbles too) into my primary and they're just getting chewed up in there. Seems like the more I ride and the hotter the bike gets, the more harsh the noise. It gets pretty nasty at 2500-3000 RPMs, particularly on decel. It's in every gear, at any speed, but doesn't necessarily seem to be 100% constant / consistent.

Any thoughts on what the issue(s) might be??

 

[user_deleted]

frankie: for starters i would NOT ride it any further until proper diagnosis is done by either you or someone familiar with buell/sportster drivelines. it could be anything from the front rotor attachment nut coming loose to rear input shaft/clutch pack nut coming loose. i would also lift the bike sufficiently so that rear wheel could be spun by hand. do that and see if you have a loud grinding type noise emanating from the front pulley area. if so it is the output shaft main bearing. out of curiousity did you find excessive amount of metal shavings on the primary drain plug when you did fluid change?

 

[frankiefilth]

Thanks for the reply Lunatic, I appreciate your input. I did not find excessive metal shavings, only a very, very small amount on the magnet. What I did find though, was some thick, gunky buildup on the clutch inspection cover. I attributed this to moisture having gotten into the case over the winter and I figured it'll probably be fine after changing the lube. I'll try to spin the wheel when I get home from work today and report back..

 

[frankiefilth]

It may also be worth mentioning that my clutch "feels different" this year.. It feels as though the friction zone is now way out at the end of the lever, whereas before it seemed to be more in the middle. It may be my imagination or foggy memory but, I'm pretty sure I'm letting the lever out quite a bit more now before I begin to pull off from a stop.

 

[frankiefilth]

lift the bike sufficiently so that rear wheel could be spun by hand. do that and see if you have a loud grinding type noise emanating from the front pulley area.

I put it up on the rear stand and rotated the wheel as you suggested.. Nothing bad coming from the front pulley nor the primary, in neutral or 5th gear. I suppose it's time to pull the primary cover and inspect everything. What do you suggest are the first couple of things I should be looking for?

 

[jimijeans]

Since you have an 2007 you might look for the Small things first like Primary Chain AND the Tensioner, for wear or looseness. If you are sure nothing there is wrong next step!
If you do pull the Primary (transmission) cover.
Check the Front Rotor nut and behind it the bolts for the Stator that hold it to the Engine case. The Rotor nut is Left handed threads. I have seen the Rotors Magnets chip and so on.Then on to the Clutch basket and Inner bearings inside the Basket. Before you take the Parts completely out of the Primary.
TRY THIS TEST You can remove the Chain (2 screws) inspection plate, Now in Neutral only at this time Start the Engine(only if the bike is level) on an Pitt Stand. Do not rev the bike or Tranny Fluid is going to go out of the inspection Covers. You can Also just REMOVE only the Primary Chain Inspection Plate and listen while IDLING, JUST let it Idle and listen and LOOK.
No fingers inside those holes please. You can Gently put it in 1st Gear with only the Chain inspection plate Removed. I have done it with Both inspection covers off But I have tricks some don't so TAKE your TIME!. please Lock your front tire or Caliper from moving for safety!
EASY on letting out on the Clutch LEVER making sure to be able to pull it in Quickly if needed when the noise starts.. You can if on a PROPER Stand Front Wheel Disc Locked or Tire Chocked and Bike level, Kinda Ride the Clutch Lever letting it out just a little, then pull it back in listen and look.
DO NOT Rev the Engine let it idle for this test. The Primary Chain Tensioner the slack on the chain should only be 3/8 up and down play on a Dead cold engine .not running.. Please use Safety Glasses so as not to damage your eyes. There are Manuals at the top of the page to help you operation wise are pretty much the same for several years. Post up when can.*Jimi

 

[frankiefilth]

Thanks a lot for your input Jimi. I already drained the gear oil yesterday evening, in preparation for removing the cover for the first time. It's not always easy for me to find time to wrench (especially during the midweek of course) so I'm taking it in steps. I ordered some stuff from ASB last night (lube, gasket, shift shaft seal, clutch cable and o-ring). I'll try and make time tonight to pull the cover and I'll post whatever I come up with.. I kinda hope there's something obvious that just jumps right out at me! And I do have a service manual already, thankfully.

 

[user_deleted]

frankie: let's pause here for a moment: according to your original post something seems to have gone awry while the bike was in a heated storage building. let's assume nobody knocked it over or rode it/abused it during that time. is that correct? if so, problem should be minor. THE FIRST THING you want to do is compare your new primary cover gasket to the OEM one you'll be removing. new one must be approx. same thickness or the shift lever will feel bulky and cause problems for you. after draining primary fluid remove the cover and cable and lay it aside. i'm betting you will find either a loose front rotor/pulley attachment nut or loose rear input shaft attachment nut. jimi above posted good info...BUT....the large nut on engine shaft is standard right hand thread....the large nut on rear trans shaft is left hand thread. both should be red-loctited and torqued to specs.

 

[frankiefilth]

Lunatic: Yes, I'm positive that nobody rode the bike or damaged it in any way while it was in storage.. And I pray that it's something minor because I just can't afford parts and crazy labor right now. At this point, I am becoming much less confident in my ability to diagnose / repair this myself and I'm afraid it might be time to truck it to the dealership

I was able to remove the primary cover today and, upon a simple visual inspection, did not notice anything alarming..

I'm afraid I don't have the skill set, nor the tools, to start playing with these parts.. I just read in the manual to "remove the clutch, clutch shell/hub, primary chain and engine sprocket as a unit". Correct me if I'm wrong but, this cannot be done without a sprocket locking link and some compressing / pulling tools, right? Do I need the locking link even to just check the torque on the engine sprocket nut?

 

[jimijeans]

The front Rotor Gear/Sprocket and rear of the Clutch basket need to be locked together by the proper tools. I made mine years ago from a flat piece of steel Made several of those and beveled them so it will stay in the correct position, between the gear teeth .
I have made plenty of tools in the day to save a buck.
Nice pictures by the way. While you have it down where it is at roll the rear wheel in Neutral, move it around see if there is a wobble noise or something of that sort. I was hoping to catch you before it was taken apart, for a few Tests to hopefully keep it out of the shop.
The cheap tools for now and again work Say a place like Harbor Freight will do fine for now and again work. It is very rare the Front sprocket nut is loose in front of the Stator, it is a (Left handed thread).. Depends on how many owners etc, may have been working on it. If you are willing to buy a cheap Quart of Transmission Fluid. And some black RTV silicone sealant and just reuse the Transmission Gasket make sure it is clean and dry all around, put it back together only use the sealant very thin amount on the gasket .
Then if you like do the Testing .
The cheap fluid will not hurt the Tranny for testing OR a short ride(less than 200 miles. Since you are thinking about going to the dealer anyway just put it back together cause they will replace the necessary parts once figured out on your problem. At least will be put together and you won't waste your money from the new parts. Never tell the Dealer you worked on it !. hope the Dealer is Buell Friendly. .Make sure to get an Est., only & what is wrong before you do have them work on it. I also believe it is a simple fix. Good Luck.*Jimi

 

[user_deleted]

frankiefilty: see link below. pics of what you'll be dealing with. pics are highly detailed. you can try what jimi said but curious before bike makes trip to dealer: do you have approx. 1/2 inch of COLD freeplay in center of top chain row? and can you feel any kind of sloppiness or freeplay in rear hub assembly if you firmly grasp it and try to wiggle it? if so, the hub nut is loose which can happen.


http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/496214.html

 

[raz65man]

I have experienced the exact noises/symptoms and this is what I found. With the primary cover off grab the outside diameter of the clutch basket and try to move it up/down & side to side. If there is any movement the roller bearing that is between the hubs of the inner & outer baskets is starting to go bad. I too had no debris in the oil or on the magnet. I think mine was due to water contamination coming in through the adjustment boot on the clutch cable. I agree with the above comments to not ride it until you have it figured out because failure is going to create a lot more damage.
A heads up......I ordered the inner/outer thrust washers, bearing race, and bearing 5 weeks ago. Washers and race came within a week but the bearing is on national backorder.(Hopefully today?) I'm not positive this is the problem you have, but by your description I would almost bet on it.
Good luck,
Raz

 

[frankiefilth]

Thank you all for taking the time to share your knowledge with me, really appreciate it! I had a moment of weakness last night, but I decided today that I'm not going to give up to the dealership just yet.. I plan to make my own sprocket locking tool in the next few days and I realized that I don't need the spring compressor to remove the clutch assembly as a whole unit. At the very least, I want to get behind the sprocket and the clutch for further inspection.

1/2 inch of COLD freeplay in center of top chain row?

Looks like it. I didn't actually take a measurement but I'd say it's at least that.

sloppiness or freeplay in rear hub assembly

The clutch shell seemed to wiggle a tiny bit around the clutch hub, but not much.

Thanks for dropping that link Lunatic, great info and pics there!

@Raz thanks for jumping in on this man.. I'm pretty sure I ended up with a bad moisture issue as well, possibly what got me to this point.. In a way I feel better that I'm not the only one to have encountered such a disappointing scenario.. Sorry.

So should there be absolutely zero tolerance for play between the shell and the hub?

 

[EricZ]

You can use a door hinge for the primary locking tool and you only need to remove the clutch hub nut to get the clutch assembly off. Once the nut is off, you can pull the hub out of the basket and then maneuver the clutch shell around while you pull the primary chain off the front sprocket. It's pretty easy!

 

[jimijeans]

Yep, no freeplay, especially in the Clutch Basket area. All NEW Bearings for that area. YOUR a Buelller now, Just hang in there, and stay away if at all possible from the dealer. I realize sometimes you can't. the Buellers/ Riders here are people that want to help, as long as you have patience we will do as much as possible to get you riding safely The.3/8 adjustment I mentioned because possibly on the chain will work with a Standard Primary Chain in worn shape
however, the 1/2 inch Cold setting might be too much at this time that is part of the ( testing) I mentioned earlier. as long as the chain hasn't been streached before you bought the bike and the prior owner had to have it adjusted by someone Might have been done right OR not., then rode it for a while, sold to another and now ,caught up to you and is it is slaping around with worn out OR that becomes more/,wthen it gets Hot, once it gets hot it can become out by as much as 7/8. After that the Bearings will be worn enough that it will pull the Clutch Basket forward causing misalignment and chain slap and eventually if not fixed properly need new gears.
I don't feel hoping that it has gone that far due to your first posting.
Clutch.Basket will need to be rebuilt (re manned) with at least all new bearings and inspection. We are not there to see that or hear it run making the noise so most of us have to assume and try to lead in the right direction., The Primary or Transmission Cover Acts like an Echo chamber, anything out of adjustment or worn and it will sound like it is coming apart .Good for you for parking it quickly.
While you are at it/ if it is still apart look inside the Primary Cover for scratches as if it (had) possibly been rubbing. Check the Wear to your primary Tensioner where it was riding across the top of it, also and the O'ring under the Tensioner shaft should be replaced with a factory one..
check the threads on the tensioner and the lock nut.
if you are going to re-man the outer area you now have exposed/ Clutch basket bearings and the internals do it all while it is down. Especially if the Transmission (shifted good) when you had it together no grinding and such, going into the gears.. Putting it back together was my way of making sure the Gears & Shifter Drum inside the Engine case were not at fault.. Also really check the Rear Clutch Baskets Thrust Washer up against the Case Bearing behind the Basket they get pitted from the heat and not good enough fluid in the Tranny being used 20/50 OR 20/60- Amsoil is a good choice for your bike Engine and Transmission... *Jimi

 

[frankiefilth]

@EricZ thanks for the tip! I just went to the hardware store and ended up picking up a piece of steel that I'll cut to length (1-1/8" wide, 3/16" thick) that should probably work okay, right?

YOUR a Buelller now, Just hang in there, and stay away if at all possible from the dealer.

Thanks for the inspiration Jimi! I'm trying..

So, regarding the chain.. I measured the play in the center.. 3/4" on the top row and 1" on the bottom row, is that unusually excessive? Seemed logical to me that it would have a fair amount of play with zero tension on it..?? There aren't any marks around the inside of the primary cover itself, but a little bit on the tensioner.. Again, I would think some scuffing there [to some extent] would be expected. Here's the best pic I could capture..

I have to wait until I can get the proper sockets to pull the gears and clutch, nothing @ the local hardware store.. Maybe tomorrow morning when the auto store is open. Also, it looks like I don't have much time this wknd to wrench, which really sucks! But I'll do my best to get it done as soon as possible and be that much closer to getting this resolved!

 

[jimijeans]

Hey, Don't remember that been too long a day. Since you have just enough or some tools to pull Transmission down where it is at . Time is money in the business , If you have time., is putting it back together for some reason out of the question.?
Testing several areas is your best bet for keeping costs down. This way till you make a list and buy some tools you can possibly avoid maybe a lot of money being spent. Especially if you were to adjust the chain several times find the right adjustment & that was all it was.
I have had to put together many vehicles to diagnous a problem from a previous work being done and most times it was simple and here and there sometimes not. Techs have to be sure . That is the best I can come up with for helping you out. The previous postings should get you in the right direction. Take your time , and enjoy Learning your Ride, might just keep you hopefully out of the dealer. *Jimi

 

[jimijeans]

BTW, don't rush yourself if possible. The Chain can't be measured on the Bike gears. Make sure to put a small bevel on the Flat metal ON each end so it fits snugly inbetween the Sprocket Gears. The Flat piece of metal needs to be as Wide as the Sprocket is for the best working of the tool.
Look up Jims on the internet or Kent Moore Tools for Harley Davidson. Google that etc. OR Google Buell Transmission tools or something,. to get an Idea of the slight angle to make your tool of locking the gears to break the nut so as not to damage the Transmission. That way the Gear Teeth won't get damaged from a slip or something. Take your time . *Jimi

 

[frankiefilth]

So I finally had time yesterday to fab the locking link and attempt to pull the clutch and drive gears.. No go.
I tried and tried to break the sprocket nut free but all I managed to do was trash my torque wrench. The nut didn't budge and my wrench is shot.. So, now making plans to truck it to the dealer for service.
@Jimi I didn't want to spend more time (and possibly more money) to do any sort of testing. I felt I would just end up in the same spot regardless, still scratching my head and needing the service shop to figure it out. May be ignorance or whatever, I just have a very strong feeling that there's more to it than adjustments and such. I'm quite sure that there will be [at the very least] a couple small parts to replace. But I appreciate your thoughts and attempt to help me out!
Hopefully I'll be able to get it to the dealer this weekend. I just hope they don't charge me an arm and a leg to fix it! I'll post the results after it's all said and done.
Thank you all for your input!

 

[Jmal18]

Hey man, props to you for knowing when to call it a day. We've all gone "too far" and sheared/stripped bolts, over tightened, f'ed something up.