Primary - Gears? ChainClutch?
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frankiefilth
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@Jmal I hear ya man, taken that route already working on this bike! Rocker gaskets turned into a nightmare 75% into it, thought I was headed to the dealer then too but I managed to save face.
@Raz Thanks for sharing and good luck with it! Post up some pictures if you can, maybe this thread will prove to be useful to others. On one hand I hope my problem is the same as yours, as it seems easily diagnosed.. But on the other, I'm hoping to have it fixed and get a bit of riding in before the end of the season (not much left in VT).
@Raz Thanks for sharing and good luck with it! Post up some pictures if you can, maybe this thread will prove to be useful to others. On one hand I hope my problem is the same as yours, as it seems easily diagnosed.. But on the other, I'm hoping to have it fixed and get a bit of riding in before the end of the season (not much left in VT).
Did not have to measure! Bearing is a Koyo 40BTM 4720 and I will have 2 from our local supplier by the end of the week. I got a couple of pics on my phone but I'll have to wait until I get home to post them as I don't have my USB cable with me hear at work.
Raz
Raz
This is starting to suck. I received this message from my bearing supplier at work. "This is an OEM item. No longer in production." I have an email out to Koyo bearings asking what the deal is. Part # is 40BMT4720. Tomorrow I will try to cross reference to see if anyone else makes one.[confused]
Raz
frankiefilth
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That totally sucks, sounded like you were onto something promising! I wish I knew exactly what I'm looking at in those pics, guess I might have to break out my manual.. Just don't really have any reference as I wasn't able to get as far in my disassembly..
Good luck with the search Raz, hope ya get it all worked out! I'll see if I can come up with anything on the cross reference too!
Good luck with the search Raz, hope ya get it all worked out! I'll see if I can come up with anything on the cross reference too!
frankiefilth
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So I did some research and have a better understanding of the clutch assembly now.. But I'm having a hard time finding any info on that Koyo part #.. Do you have any measurements Raz?
frankiefilth
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You know the Harley part #? I've got leads on a variety of manufacturers, all with part #s that begin with HK or BK.. Wondering how they might differ from one another.
IKO - HK 4020
SKF - BK 4020
INA - BK 4020
INA - HK 4020
VXB - HK 4020
Isutami - BK 4020
FAG - BK 4020
Koyo RS40/20, which seems to have replaced K404720.
IKO - HK 4020
SKF - BK 4020
INA - BK 4020
INA - HK 4020
VXB - HK 4020
Isutami - BK 4020
FAG - BK 4020
Koyo RS40/20, which seems to have replaced K404720.
Hey there Raz., nice pics By the way for those who may be new to Wrenching, never use a TorQue Wrench to Break anything loose that tool is only for finishing the tightening to Specs,.upon completion of work. OR you will never be able to trust it ever again to Torque or Re-torque bolts and the like..
Most times especially transmission work in the primary area, it can be confusing when trying to diagnous the problem when it is a new to you deal!. Frankie, if you can just put the tranny back together when you can before you take it to the dealer due to they will have to so it can be diagnoused properly otherwise the cost will floor you at 90.plus dollars an hour.
ASK them at the dealer if they have a way you could speak to a Buell Tech., before you tell them you have a bike for them to work on. This way you can get a feel for if they are Buell wise uhhh/ Friendly and such. Was hoping you would at least get it back together I figured it would eventually be taken to the dealer due to the postings, The cost will be much less expensive if all is put back, AND do not tell them you worked on it.
JUST to be safe about that. Sometimes a trip to the Dealer before taking the bike there, and to speak about it so as to get a feel for the Service Dept;
Some( not ALL)now the Dealers can not stand the Buells for to some techs., IF it isn't a Harley Davidson it shouldn't be in their shop.
The Bigger V Twin Harley Bike Techs love the Simplicity of the cruiser, easy to work on then There is a Buell. Tucked up in there like an AirCraft with wheels Very Time Consuming. Not Knocking the Techs most love their jobs and such love the Big V Twins.
We Buellers got the short end of the stick . I work on many models of bikes so the less you tell them about your working on the bike the less the dealer can say. I Hope you have a Buell Friendly Dealer and best of luck in your venture. I'm sure you will be fine.. *Jimi
Most times especially transmission work in the primary area, it can be confusing when trying to diagnous the problem when it is a new to you deal!. Frankie, if you can just put the tranny back together when you can before you take it to the dealer due to they will have to so it can be diagnoused properly otherwise the cost will floor you at 90.plus dollars an hour.
ASK them at the dealer if they have a way you could speak to a Buell Tech., before you tell them you have a bike for them to work on. This way you can get a feel for if they are Buell wise uhhh/ Friendly and such. Was hoping you would at least get it back together I figured it would eventually be taken to the dealer due to the postings, The cost will be much less expensive if all is put back, AND do not tell them you worked on it.
JUST to be safe about that. Sometimes a trip to the Dealer before taking the bike there, and to speak about it so as to get a feel for the Service Dept;
Some( not ALL)now the Dealers can not stand the Buells for to some techs., IF it isn't a Harley Davidson it shouldn't be in their shop.
The Bigger V Twin Harley Bike Techs love the Simplicity of the cruiser, easy to work on then There is a Buell. Tucked up in there like an AirCraft with wheels Very Time Consuming. Not Knocking the Techs most love their jobs and such love the Big V Twins.
We Buellers got the short end of the stick . I work on many models of bikes so the less you tell them about your working on the bike the less the dealer can say. I Hope you have a Buell Friendly Dealer and best of luck in your venture. I'm sure you will be fine.. *Jimi
frankiefilth
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Someday I'll know what the hell I'm doing, haha..
Jimi, this whole experience may be full of lessons learned the hard way..
As far as the dealer goes, I called them yesterday and told them what I've been going through (and that I tried to work on it). [sad] If I had only known better. I also told them that it's not put back together and that I have parts. Of course the guy said "well that's gonna make it harder to figure out what the problem is. It'd be better if we could take it for a test ride".
Hopefully whatever is wrong in there is noticeable to them before they put anything back together. I might pay dearly for it in the end, but I just don't have the time to put it together myself before I bring it to them tomorrow.
I just wanna ride again, my season has been total shit this year. If it cost me a few hundred to get her back in awesome running condition, I can deal with that.. But if they whack me for $400-500 or something though, I might end up homeless.. But at least I'll have my bike!
For what it's worth, the dealer has a huge Buell sign under their Harley sign out front, their website says they have experienced Buell certified techs, they have a sales chick (who sold me my bike) who rides a Firebolt, and the service guy on the phone yesterday sounded pretty nice.. Maybe it's all coincidental, but I've got my fingers crossed that they're cool with Buell and they'll take good care of me!
Jimi, this whole experience may be full of lessons learned the hard way..
Wish I had thought of that. I only used mine on the sprocket nut because of the length, for extra leverage. Hindsight's 20/20 right? Oh well..
As far as the dealer goes, I called them yesterday and told them what I've been going through (and that I tried to work on it). [sad] If I had only known better. I also told them that it's not put back together and that I have parts. Of course the guy said "well that's gonna make it harder to figure out what the problem is. It'd be better if we could take it for a test ride".
Hopefully whatever is wrong in there is noticeable to them before they put anything back together. I might pay dearly for it in the end, but I just don't have the time to put it together myself before I bring it to them tomorrow.
I just wanna ride again, my season has been total shit this year. If it cost me a few hundred to get her back in awesome running condition, I can deal with that.. But if they whack me for $400-500 or something though, I might end up homeless.. But at least I'll have my bike!
For what it's worth, the dealer has a huge Buell sign under their Harley sign out front, their website says they have experienced Buell certified techs, they have a sales chick (who sold me my bike) who rides a Firebolt, and the service guy on the phone yesterday sounded pretty nice.. Maybe it's all coincidental, but I've got my fingers crossed that they're cool with Buell and they'll take good care of me!
frankiefilth
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@Jimi I ended up getting out of work early yesterday and I was thinking a lot about everything you've said here..
I had my chance to put the primary back together, so that's what I did. If they're going to do the same at the dealer, just to take it for a test ride, then I might as well do it myself and not have to pay for it. I replaced the clutch cable and o-ring, plus the shift shaft gasket. I reused the cover gaskets for now because I'm pretty sure the covers will be coming off again.. If they don't need to for some reason, I'll take em off just to do the gaskets.
So everything's back together.. It still makes the same "sssshhhsssshh" sound when I drop into first gear. I don't know how else to describe it. It just sounds like friction I guess. That was my original issue that prompted me to play with the chain tension, thinking it was too tight. As this was when I first pulled it from storage this year, I'm starting to wonder if it made that sound last year too.. And the year before that.. And the one before that.. I just don't know anymore. I listened to my dad's 1200 Sportster and it does the same thing, he doesn't seem to think there's a problem with it..
Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't recall hearing the other noise while riding (originally described as nuts, bolts and marbles in the primary) until after I started playing with the chain tension. Also, I wonder if I was originally exaggerating a little bit with that description..
At any rate, both noises still exist but, it doesn't seem that the nasty noise while riding is quite so nasty anymore. It seems quieter and doesn't exist as often as before. It seems to only happen at certain RPM ranges.. Perhaps, under load at some RPMs and without load at other RPMs. The 2500-3000 RPM zone still seems to be the hot spot. For instance, if I just exceed 3000 in second gear and then gently roll off the throttle, I'll hear the noise on decel with the RPMs dropping to around 2500.
I am going to take it for a ride at some point today and post here immediately afterward, so I can try and give a more accurate and fresh description.
I had my chance to put the primary back together, so that's what I did. If they're going to do the same at the dealer, just to take it for a test ride, then I might as well do it myself and not have to pay for it. I replaced the clutch cable and o-ring, plus the shift shaft gasket. I reused the cover gaskets for now because I'm pretty sure the covers will be coming off again.. If they don't need to for some reason, I'll take em off just to do the gaskets.
So everything's back together.. It still makes the same "sssshhhsssshh" sound when I drop into first gear. I don't know how else to describe it. It just sounds like friction I guess. That was my original issue that prompted me to play with the chain tension, thinking it was too tight. As this was when I first pulled it from storage this year, I'm starting to wonder if it made that sound last year too.. And the year before that.. And the one before that.. I just don't know anymore. I listened to my dad's 1200 Sportster and it does the same thing, he doesn't seem to think there's a problem with it..
Now that I'm thinking of it, I don't recall hearing the other noise while riding (originally described as nuts, bolts and marbles in the primary) until after I started playing with the chain tension. Also, I wonder if I was originally exaggerating a little bit with that description..
At any rate, both noises still exist but, it doesn't seem that the nasty noise while riding is quite so nasty anymore. It seems quieter and doesn't exist as often as before. It seems to only happen at certain RPM ranges.. Perhaps, under load at some RPMs and without load at other RPMs. The 2500-3000 RPM zone still seems to be the hot spot. For instance, if I just exceed 3000 in second gear and then gently roll off the throttle, I'll hear the noise on decel with the RPMs dropping to around 2500.
I am going to take it for a ride at some point today and post here immediately afterward, so I can try and give a more accurate and fresh description.
Got the bearing installed and Bruiser is all back together. Did a quick shakedown run around the block right at dark. Had to tweak the clutch adjustment when I got back. Headed out in the morning for a good long shakedown run. Play was eliminated from the clutch basket and once started all abnormal noises from the primary were gone. I am one happy camper!
Raz
Raz
Good for you Raz., a little patience goes a long way when at all possible. The AmsOil products work well in the Buell especially the XBs models of bikes. Due to the heat issues AND it is a good product.. 20/50 in both Primary and Engine will work well. And gives you a (Small Buffer) on Changing the Fluids just in case.
I use 20/60 in the Engine and the primary due to the Transmission has no cooler so it helps to absorb heat and the slightly thicker fluid should last around 4000 miles.
At least that is what I do for my 2008 XB12R I'm a Tech and make sure to keep my bikes riding as long as possible. IF there is no Amsoil products in your area Make sure to use a good Syntheic made for the V Twin motorcycles
I have several customers that use the Castrol Syntec 20/50 usually at most Napa Auto parts for the 50 weight. If you can't find the 50 weight then use a lucas Synthetic oil Stabilizer just a bit for a good result.. they bring it to the shop and save some money. So far these return customers have had great results.Good Adjustments every oil change or 4 to 5'000miless with mostly normal riding will keep both wheels rolling. ride Safe. *Jimi
I use 20/60 in the Engine and the primary due to the Transmission has no cooler so it helps to absorb heat and the slightly thicker fluid should last around 4000 miles.
At least that is what I do for my 2008 XB12R I'm a Tech and make sure to keep my bikes riding as long as possible. IF there is no Amsoil products in your area Make sure to use a good Syntheic made for the V Twin motorcycles
I have several customers that use the Castrol Syntec 20/50 usually at most Napa Auto parts for the 50 weight. If you can't find the 50 weight then use a lucas Synthetic oil Stabilizer just a bit for a good result.. they bring it to the shop and save some money. So far these return customers have had great results.Good Adjustments every oil change or 4 to 5'000miless with mostly normal riding will keep both wheels rolling. ride Safe. *Jimi
Hey Frankie is there a way you could make a Video of the noise? Not really needed and I forget what Fluids you are running in the Primary. Since it only takes a Quart of fluid in the Primary you can always go to a slightly thicker fluid in the Transmission, which is better for longer running(miles)..
Amsoil makes a 20/60 oil AND a 75/90 Full Synthetic gear oil that I have used in the Hotter months in the XB12R, actually I have used it year round last couple of years with just a little warm up in colder months. It has out performed everything. In the Primary mixed 1/2 of 75/90 and whatever else you are using. As long as you don't mix Formula Plus from H/D.OR any Regular Transmission fluids.
If you are using Screaming Eagle Products from Harley Davidson then please change the Fluids at 2'500 miles as required for that fluid. Hopefully you can get different uhhh better Oils, in the area where you are at. I'm glad you re-installed the parts and such.
Go Proper with the Adjustments in the manual and see how it goes. The Buell XB model bikes do make unusual noises. It will take time to sort it out. The thicker Fluids help some with that as well. Also make sure to put a small piece of hose clear or otherwise on that Clutch Cable down where it comes out of the lower chin fairing where it is resting going to the Primary cover or it will cut into the cable over time and start leaking .Cutting the Chin fairing is not a good idea or the fairing will crack.
These bikes vibrate so small items like that will keep the money in your pocket. Also the Regulator on your bike where it it mounted will fry over time as well. I extended mine and several customers out with longer bolts and hollow aluminum dowels from Ace Hardware 3/4 of an inch no longer than that!! The longer bolts to keep it away from the front heads heat keeping the gel cool.. I insulated the bolt that stuck out with a small piece of vacuum hose and a squirt of silicone on the bolt to hold it on. This will protect the Harness where it comes out of the Regulator going to the Stator under the left Air Scoop. Small Things First will keep you rolling . Ride Safe *Jimi
Amsoil makes a 20/60 oil AND a 75/90 Full Synthetic gear oil that I have used in the Hotter months in the XB12R, actually I have used it year round last couple of years with just a little warm up in colder months. It has out performed everything. In the Primary mixed 1/2 of 75/90 and whatever else you are using. As long as you don't mix Formula Plus from H/D.OR any Regular Transmission fluids.
If you are using Screaming Eagle Products from Harley Davidson then please change the Fluids at 2'500 miles as required for that fluid. Hopefully you can get different uhhh better Oils, in the area where you are at. I'm glad you re-installed the parts and such.
Go Proper with the Adjustments in the manual and see how it goes. The Buell XB model bikes do make unusual noises. It will take time to sort it out. The thicker Fluids help some with that as well. Also make sure to put a small piece of hose clear or otherwise on that Clutch Cable down where it comes out of the lower chin fairing where it is resting going to the Primary cover or it will cut into the cable over time and start leaking .Cutting the Chin fairing is not a good idea or the fairing will crack.
These bikes vibrate so small items like that will keep the money in your pocket. Also the Regulator on your bike where it it mounted will fry over time as well. I extended mine and several customers out with longer bolts and hollow aluminum dowels from Ace Hardware 3/4 of an inch no longer than that!! The longer bolts to keep it away from the front heads heat keeping the gel cool.. I insulated the bolt that stuck out with a small piece of vacuum hose and a squirt of silicone on the bolt to hold it on. This will protect the Harness where it comes out of the Regulator going to the Stator under the left Air Scoop. Small Things First will keep you rolling . Ride Safe *Jimi
frankiefilth
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@Raz Nice man, good for you! Glad you got it all sorted and she's back to normal!
@Jimi Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely consider pulling the regulator out a bit!
Regarding oils.. I use Castrol 'Power RS V-Twin 4T' 20/50 synthetic in the engine, as this was the only thing I could find in my area. I use Harley's Formula+ in the primary.. With all the varying opinions about oil out there, my head started to hurt trying to make sense of it all. I came across one post where someone said not to use anything other than Formula+ in these motors, so I figured how could I go wrong with what's recommended in the manual. I am not opposed to switching to something else if it's well enough recommended on this site.. I have to order the Formula+ online anyway, so it doesn't really matter that other oils are not available in my area.
As far as video, I can try and get a decent shot of the noise the primary makes when I drop into first gear. I don't really have a way to shoot video of the other noise while I ride though.
Also, the more I think about it, the more I recall that the noise while riding was not present when I first pulled the bike from storage.. Things I did since then: rotated the engine and changed rocker cover gaskets and pcv valves, experimented with chain tension due to the original noise in the primary, changed primary oil, removed header for wrap and reinstalled with new gaskets. What would a leak at the header sound like??
Is it at all possible that my final drive belt is a little too tight, creating a noise in the primary/engine area? Maybe when I rotated the engine I turned the axel one or two times too many putting everything back together??
@Jimi Thanks for the tips, I'll definitely consider pulling the regulator out a bit!
Regarding oils.. I use Castrol 'Power RS V-Twin 4T' 20/50 synthetic in the engine, as this was the only thing I could find in my area. I use Harley's Formula+ in the primary.. With all the varying opinions about oil out there, my head started to hurt trying to make sense of it all. I came across one post where someone said not to use anything other than Formula+ in these motors, so I figured how could I go wrong with what's recommended in the manual. I am not opposed to switching to something else if it's well enough recommended on this site.. I have to order the Formula+ online anyway, so it doesn't really matter that other oils are not available in my area.
As far as video, I can try and get a decent shot of the noise the primary makes when I drop into first gear. I don't really have a way to shoot video of the other noise while I ride though.
Also, the more I think about it, the more I recall that the noise while riding was not present when I first pulled the bike from storage.. Things I did since then: rotated the engine and changed rocker cover gaskets and pcv valves, experimented with chain tension due to the original noise in the primary, changed primary oil, removed header for wrap and reinstalled with new gaskets. What would a leak at the header sound like??
Is it at all possible that my final drive belt is a little too tight, creating a noise in the primary/engine area? Maybe when I rotated the engine I turned the axel one or two times too many putting everything back together??
frankiefilth
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I am going to start a new thread with my most recent discovery in the primary noise. I need to address only one thing at a time, starting with the original issue: "friction" noise in the primary when dropping into gear. Turns out though, it doesn't only happen in gear; I have video now to demonstrate.. It also happens when simply pulling in the clutch lever. Pull lever, wait a few seconds, "friction" noise..
Could you please let us know the bearing part number you bought in NAPA to replace the original clutch shell bearing. How many miles do you have on this bearing at the moment. Any issues with the clutch while this time?
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