09 ECM solution or symptom

[redsqwrl]

Bought new in 10' LAX wisconsin.

currently has about 10K miles.

Had a no start ( no crank issue ) briefly, I thought it was a bad ground or starter and the bike sat most of this summer. (Found a blown fuse and changed it) fuse cover said it was the lights.

I Changed fuse and bike cranks starts as it should. However! after a short ride to my sons house I noticed no fan. zippo zero.

I no longer have a cooling fan. ( bike sat again as the reward is not worth the risk )
after the bike sat a bit I acquired a used fan. Swapped the fan and verified the fan worked on a battery. Both fans are good!

Nest I purchased a buell tooth.

fan works when commanded to. ( both fans I own do)

so here is where I am at.

Temp sensor is good, I sourced a new one and they are same across multiple timed tests. Buell tooth saw some codes in the history, four of which all seemed benign as the codes matched items I did during maintenance. I cleared them and nothing comes back. if I pin out the wires it will flash an 47 error. ( the aux relay is warmer than i like but not hot and i don't run any accessories.)

When I start the bike and go for a ride I get the same 2-3 minutes of operation before it flashes a check engine light and the tach dips hard to zero or near to zero, It recovers and runs a bit off as it stabilizes, it then dips rythmically it is a brutal buck if you were to try to ride it. NOTE ( no cooling fan ever )

If you shut off the bike and refire it..... it will be perfect for about 1/2 of the time and then act like it is got a dead short.

Voltages are 13.7 to 14.78 depending on the state of the battery
Never a cooling fan ever

all lights signals horn and neutral ect and horn work as they should just no cooling fan.

So I am headed to the harness and cant find or ohm out any chaffed or shorted wires. the fan does have 12v to it.

the EC M has a crack the black connector side does get warm, I talked to IDS and I can get a box but before I start playing swap tronics I want to find the smoking gun.

Any one have a thought. I don't care how off you feel it might be. I love this bike and want to keep using it to clear my head. I miss it.

a red headed step child in Wisconsin.

or mike

 

[Cooter]

Hello! And welcome to the forum

Sounds like you have a well taken care of Buell with some minor hiccups. But why are you so focused on the fan running or not? Buells are air-cooled (not water cooled) and therefore have a MUCH wider good operating range than your daly commuter car. It is perfectly normal to go for a ride and never have the fan NOT ever activate (depending on engine and ambient temps of course). Even without a fan, there are many safeties built into the ECM to prevent overheating and they don't even need to begin to intervene until 285*.

If ECMDroid through the Buelltooth will activate the fan, then the ECM can activate it and the wiring is OK. Period.

The only concerns I have are these:

1) When I start the bike and go for a ride I get the same 2-3 minutes of operation before it flashes a check engine light and the tach dips hard to zero or near to zero, It recovers and runs a bit off as it stabilizes, it then dips rythmically it is a brutal buck if you were to try to ride it.

2)..... it will be perfect for about 1/2 of the time and then act like it is got a dead short.

3)the EC M has a crack the black connector side

Can you elaborate on these 3 things?
1) The Buell cold start sequence is very long and very rich. 2-3 minutes would be where the ECM wants to switch to normal Closed Loop operation.

2) "Dead short" like your battery is on fire? Won't crank? Cranks and wont start?

3) Ya, uh. The very small price for a new ECM from IDS is worth it.

 

[smorris]

I've riden that brutal buck after tach sweep and check engine on my "06

it was the steering head ground....took a while to find.
sweep steering hard left and then right while running, sitting upright on bike, and not moving. sometimes that will activate the ground short in steering ground.
Mine was down line in the loon further toward engine inside the look are a couple crimp unions where wire will break

 

[redsqwrl]

Hello! And welcome to the forum

Sounds like you have a well taken care of Buell with some minor hiccups. But why are you so focused on the fan running or not? Buells are air-cooled (not water cooled) and therefore have a MUCH wider good operating range than your daly commuter car. It is perfectly normal to go for a ride and never have the fan NOT ever activate (depending on engine and ambient temps of course). Even without a fan, there are many safeties built into the ECM to prevent overheating and they don't even need to begin to intervene until 285*.

If ECMDroid through the Buelltooth will activate the fan, then the ECM can activate it and the wiring is OK. Period.

The only concerns I have are these:



Can you elaborate on these 3 things?
1) The Buell cold start sequence is very long and very rich. 2-3 minutes would be where the ECM wants to switch to normal Closed Loop operation.

2) "Dead short" like your battery is on fire? Won't crank? Cranks and wont start?

3) Ya, uh. The very small price for a new ECM from IDS is worth it.

1) The Buell cold start sequence is very long and very rich. 2-3 minutes would be where the ECM wants to switch to normal Closed Loop operation.

this is helpful info, I am going to look at my O2 sensors as they are likely ignored until the it goes closed loop or do you suppose they look to them for heat increase for a bit .........

2) "Dead short" like your battery is on fire? Won't crank? Cranks and wont start? I am an electrician by trade, we have brown outs, dips sags and surges. this is a hard quick dip of the control side of the bike. Head lights tail lights and voltage are stable during the event, It always cranks and restarts ( fuel pump cycles ) I am careful to not load the bike with fuel unnecessarily. it just gets to screwing up much quicker when it is warm ( I will film this and pop it on the tube of you)

3) Ya, uh. The very small price for a new ECM from IDS is worth it. ( talked to tim, ECU is getting ordered, I just want to eliminate something on the bike. I percieve the black connector side of the ecm warmer than I like, tim said they can take large amounts of current for a long time. My warm aux relay and warm ecm may very well be normal.

 

[redsqwrl]

this stands to reason. if the ground that is effected is not utilized until it goes closed loop.

i will jerk it around but I am not seeing erratic behaviour this is very consistent same everytime I fire it up to check things over. I will time it with something more accurate than the length of a song while i work on it.

 

[redsqwrl]

to the electrical power and chafing, I will dig in a bit deeper on the inspection, but I looked beyond the obvious because of the patterned behaviour.

in my head it is temperature related as the time to misfire is predictable and measureable I need to film the hissy fit

anyone have a ECM with a crack that is good? we are a very humid part of the world and we also see big temperature swings in short times tim said they are sealed in urethayne so we were both a bit dismissive about the internal corosion idea.

I am going to go ahead and order a box for it, but as stated I am not a fan of smoking a ecm instead of finding the work of a mouse or whatever....

 

[redsqwrl]

https://youtu.be/zg7AXPoLcv0

about 5 mins in is where the concern lies.

 

[redsqwrl]

codes from the head case

https://youtu.be/YRm52F9fmsI

 

[Barrett]

THREE obvious things I immediately noticed from your vids:

1-Do you really have to look any further than your ECM with a substantially cracked case?
2-The way you tossed the airbox cover onto the yard like it was an empty beer bottle was impressive.
3-Referred to the Interactive Exhaust Valve Actuator unit as a "pump or sh*t or whatever". Hilarious.

 

[Cooter]

Barretts right. You're going to need a new ECM anyway:
https://idspd.com/xcart/

The combination of a Uly and a low seat will put pressure on the ECM and crack it. You can do the ol' Play-Doh trick to know for sure. There is a bracket available to relocate it if you don't want to cobble one yourself.

Looks and sounds like the ignition circuit is overloading and rhythmically cutting out. I'm not aware of a circuit breaker in that system. Did someone replace the fuse with a self resetting circuit breaker? Can you feel the IGN relay clicking on and off while this happens? Is it corroded? It would explain a lot, including the lack of codes.

 

[Kurlon]

I'm kinda feeling a bit of deja-vu here... ECU replacement cleaned up my Uly that was dealing with it's own ignition cut out issues. IDS noted cracks starting on my connectors as well when I asked them to diag it. They are SUPER easy to deal with, highly recommend buying from them.

Also, show me this alternative bracket...

 

[redsqwrl]

Thanks barrett,

1-Tim dismissed the crack. they are heavily potted in urethane and twisting it around doesn't alter live data or any of the pissy running. I agree, When I found it I was content that standing on the seat in the past might have yielded this result. ( I just don't want to throw a ecm at a bad ignition coil or chaffed wire )

2-I hated red when I bought it, I still hate the red today. I have a mostly complete set of yellow plastics and some day I will swap them out. ( Buells went fast when they announced, I could not find anything but red)

3-I mumble when I talk, I was pointing out the fuel pump cycles as it should on a key reset.

 

[redsqwrl]

Barretts right. You're going to need a new ECM anyway:
https://idspd.com/xcart/

The combination of a Uly and a low seat will put pressure on the ECM and crack it. You can do the ol' Play-Doh trick to know for sure. There is a bracket available to relocate it if you don't want to cobble one yourself.

Looks and sounds like the ignition circuit is overloading and rhythmically cutting out. I'm not aware of a circuit breaker in that system. Did someone replace the fuse with a self resetting circuit breaker? Can you feel the IGN relay clicking on and off while this happens? Is it corroded? It would explain a lot, including the lack of codes.

This bike is sickening stock, I want a little more grumble, but I fought a loose muffler on a lightning and I am waiting for an excuse to mess with this bike. this is the only thing I have ever been able to buy new and It is just what a bike should be. so I leave it alone.

I agree on the rythmic loading idea, I am wondering if the O2 sensors are fed from the ignition circuit, If they are ignored during warm up, that would bring a rythmic fault in after a period of time while cold, and a shorter period of time while warm.

Ill get a ECM coming and take another tour of the wiring to make sure something is not chaffed. something blew that fuse. I only blew a fuse one other time and that was in 11' when I thought i could go 40 miles on the fuel light...... the fuel pump did not think that was funny.

 

[redsqwrl]

Thanks Kurlon, I was very happy when i hung up the phone with them, I am going to order a ecm maybe they can fatten up the mid a bit, this thing either likes throttle or brakes, just trying to potato potato at a steady speed is not his idea of fun. anyone got a muffler in mind that is not straight rude?

 

[Cooter]

IMO, Drummers have a nice adult volume, low rumble:angel:

It's not the O2 sensor. Theres no part of that circuit that will kill an engine. It is a single wire non-heated unit and is seen (but ignored) during the warm-up cycle. Technically open loop because its reading off a pre-set map and not referring to the O2 for adjustments until the engine (and the sensor) are both warm.

I would totally agree that a new ECM is the first choice I would make. Cheap, and you know you need one anyway. Report back once you put it in and get a good test ride in:up:

 

[redsqwrl]

good news and bad news.

I was able to get my hands on a good 08 ECM. Put it in. bike starts runs and does the exact same thing.

the good news is my fan is back as i recall it being. ( so this confirms the Bad ecm idea ) got a couple things in front of this $430 item but, I will be upgrading the box. the muffler is staying put. for now.

the bad news is it threw a code 21 this time around and I am starting to lean towards a coil or ignition related item that is failing and temperature related.

I am up loading a video that shows the exhaust actuator cycling when it throws its hissy fit. that is not always present so I might look for a chaffed wire on the throttle position sensor.

so I am going to put the bike back up on its strut and put the fan back in. temp sensor ohms out fine each time but I may put the new one in for grins as I need to put the loom back in place.

I appreciate the ideas, I feel it is temperature related as today was 46 degrees when I was doing my first run and it took over 11 minutes to get to condition, so that is consistant with my crazy thoughts.

I intend to put my old ecm into my friends bike and see how his reacts. I am betting tim is correct and it will run fine. ( im mostly doing it to see how his fan reacts)

 

[redsqwrl]

after a brief google session I found lots of blown fuse chat in relation to code 21. indeed, the acutator is cycling with a full throttle then key on process. so it works. However, while letting the bike run to reaffirm the fan situation that i am hung up on . it went into a stumble situation of tach dip, cel and recover, and every time it did it the actuator cycles. ( it does not always do that ) so I will be digging in a bit deeper on the conditions that tell the actuator to move.

for the conversation the cable is free and I hear the difference in exhaust note when the cable is moved. ( so its moving inside freely as well. I did have that blown lights fuse at the beginning of this debacle, It does nohttps://youtu.be/kIdr6CRVMhst blow them know But I bet its related.


https://youtu.be/kIdr6CRVMhs

 

[Cooter]

The actuator isn't causing the ignition cut, the ignition cut is causing the actuator to cycle.

Put a spark tester in line, are you losing spark?

A CPS will fail with heat, try a hair dryer or heat gun to try and replicate the hot issue with a cold engine?

 

[redsqwrl]

throw a code?

The actuator isn't causing the ignition cut, the ignition cut is causing the actuator to cycle.

Put a spark tester in line, are you losing spark?

A CPS will fail with heat, try a hair dryer or heat gun to try and replicate the hot issue with a cold engine?

would the cam position or crank position throw a code if the ignition was misfiring?

 

[Cooter]

Possibly, but Buell ECM's are 20+ year old design and still pretty rudimentary. Besides, "codes" aren't ever a solution, they are just a clue to help with the same exact proper diagnostic steps you should be doing, even without them.