09 xb12xt: 30mpg avg, dies 3-5 times at startup. oil pump vacuum... etc

[oisterska]

So I have an 09 xb12xt, purchased 7500 miles and 6 months ago. First, thanks to everyone for the headlight mod tutorials, and for the breather reroute tutorials.

The problems:
well, started out with a problem starting at anything below 50 degrees farenheit. engine runs for 30 seconds, then dies (with a hiccup sort of sound). next try, runs for a minute then dies (same sound). next time, runs for a few minutes, then dies. depending on temp, it will do this between 3 and 5 times before it will stay running for more than a few minutes. sometimes, it will die at a light/stop sign after a few minutes of riding too.

took it to dealer, they found an oil leak, fixed that. then they said that the oil pump was creating a vacuum that sucked the oil from the swingarm as soon as i turned off the engine. the cold oil in the bottom of the engine is making it hard for the pump to push the oil through the lines and causing resistance inside the engine during a cold startup (i am not a mechanic, so apologies for not knowing exact terminology).

they replaced the pump, but problem persists. their answer: harley/buell tech services tells them that it is a problem with some 2008-2010 bikes, and to basically just deal with starting issues until it gets warmer outside. This seems like an unsatisfactory answer.

they said the same thing for the gas mileage: 30mpg in winter is result of alcohol in gas. as it gets warmer, gas gets better, as will mpgs...

so I am not very happy with their answers, just wondering if this has been a problem for anyone else? if they are correct that these are not problems critical to engine life, etc., then I have one final problem:

because pump sucks oil out of swingarm, i cannot check my oil using the dipstick. dealership says that there is a harley tech bulletin that outlines a 2 PAGE process for checking oil as workaround for this problem. 2 pages! but HD doesnt send this report/give it to the riders with the problems! I am having to call and request this information.

this all seems ridiculous on a $13000, new machine. luckily I purchased 5 year warranty. ive already made 2x my money back on warrantied services and parts. (I recommend the tire and wheel plan!!)

Love the site, and if youre still reading this, thanks for lending me your ear!

-kellen

 

[Stevenc150]

What RPM's is it idling at? Also, have they tried a TPS reset and a good Learn-in ride? Also, I highly recommend Iridium spark plugs (NGK# DCPR9EIX) as they're very foul-resistant and you won't have to wonder if that's the problem.

If they've not done a TPS reset, here's the procedure so you can DIY:

'08+ TPS Reset Procedure:

- Have the Run/Stop button set to Run.

- Turn the ignition key to the On position but do not crank or start the engine.

- Open the throttle fully to the stop and hold it there for one second.

- Close the throttle fully to the stop and hold it there for one second.

- Repeat the throttle open/close procedure a total of three times in succession.

- Turn the ignition key to Off/On


Follow up with a good Learn-in ride for your ECM by taking a nice long cruise 40-60mph keeping RPMs from 1500-3500.

Edit: Oh, and welcome to the Forum. [up]

 

[afinley]

Yeah, they need to service the oil pump one way or the other. Telling you it just sucks all the oil out of the arm is not an acceptable answer. By that logic, to honor your warranty you should be adding more oil; because, the manual tells you how to check your oil and you "about a quart low" at all times right now.

If they will not help you any further, call customer care at: 4143434056, option 4

 

[oisterska]

thanks very much for your replies. they did replace the oil pump and i --assume-- that they did a TPS reset. they said that it had a 'throttle position low' code or something as well, which i assume, again, that they would do a TPS reset for.

I will try another this afternoon. Also, the mechanic (Rocky) did give me the number for harley customer care. I will also be calling them this afternoon.

I will try to post video of the startup issue on youtube or something soon.


also, Rocky at Paradise HD is a badass mechanic who has bent over backwards for me. Thanks Rocky, if you are reading this.

 

[Stevenc150]

...the cold oil in the bottom of the engine is making it hard for the pump to push the oil through the lines and causing resistance inside the engine during a cold startup

How cold are these cold starts? If that motor starts and runs for one solid minute, that oil will be warm enough to be "pushed" through the lines. This is starting to stink of BS they're trying to feed you. [down] Might have them also make sure all the latest reflashes have been done 'cause it's sounding like an ECM problem.

 

[RT Performance]

i would say you have two option get ecm spy tune it and turn up the cold enrichment.(i had to my xb9 for could start pop and stall.
option 2 find the idle adjuster and turn it up slightly
than do the tps relearn

 

[oisterska]

Here is a video of my startup issues. Startup 2009 xb12xt

No throttle is being added. dies @ 20 sec, 1 min, 1:45, 2:13, 2:45, 3:20. drives me nuts to watch this video.

I have since done the breather reroute, which helped a bit, but not really. This was after dealer replaced oil pump, gaskets, whatever else.

...and, again, thanks very much!

 

[bolt08]

WOW! that is frustrating as hell!! [down] I think that it needs to go back to the dealer and stay there until it works properly. Has it always done this or has this problem recently developed? My 08 XB12R starts & runs for about 2 to 4 seconds and stalls right away (sometimes after sitting for a week or more) but it starts right back up and doesn't do it again. Have you tried starting it and trying to keep the rpms at about 1300 to 1500 & if you did this did it stall then too? I know you don't want to go crazy revving a cold engine, but just a little more than idle?

 

[oisterska]

No, it has not always done this. It developed before a cold spell hit us here in Portland, OR. It was such a pain during the cold spell. On a few different days, it would not start at all because of the super cold oil. (25 deg. F) killed the battery trying, put the key into my 1981 Yamaha SR185 (severely neglected), and it fired right up. I was shocked. I think that I will definitely bring it back to the dealer, after hearing what you all think here and at badweb. problem is, they garage the motorcycles, so it is probably not cold enough when they start it. (mine is stored outside, under an enclosed EZUP shelter)

It was suggested (at badweb) by froggy that it is my IAC (idle air control). I will ask the dealer about that as well, and perhaps have them install some new plugs just for fun.

and yes, i have been giving slight, consistent throttle after ignition and it has helped a bit. However, it still will die at some point, be it as i hit the bottom of the driveway or 3 blocks down the road at a stoplight.

It idles at 1500rpm for a few seconds, then drops to about 1000rpm. during this time it will sometimes revv up and down a bit, almost choke out, regain equilibrium, then eventually die.

calling dealer tomorrow. thanks again

 

[onelogue]

Rocky at Paradise HD is a badass mechanic who has bent over backwards for me. Thanks Rocky, if you are reading this.

First off, I used to live it Oregon and Rocky is a bad ass!!!
I cant wait to move back in June so Rocky cane be my mechanic again.
losterka we will have to go on the Buell rides in Portland.

Your bike is definitely running wack cause my '04 started no problem last winter.
Don't settle for anything less then a push of the button and the bike idling at 1000 rpm's

bolt08, Yes normal (from what our local dealer says too), my brother's '08 xb12R jumps to 1,500 rpm at start then dies after 2 to 4 seconds. After that it idles at 1000 rpm's and never dies again.
But for olsterka's bike to die ever after warmed up; thats not right!!

 

[07Bolt]

What color is the exhaust smoke?

could be the IAC; heres a link to the DDFI3

http://lightning.prohosting.com/~buells2t/ddfi.htm

2008-up;

New Timing System
The timer cover is eliminated, as the engine is now crank timed from a new crank position sensor, which eliminates the need for manual timing, reducing maintenance costs. The ECM actively monitors and adjusts timing based on driving environment. The new sensor makes 30 reads per revolution, compared to the previous two reads per revolution, for more precise control of fuel mapping and timing to conditions.

New DDFI 3 ECM (Engine Control Module)
A new ECM with increased computing capacity. DDFI 3 actively controls and monitors the TPS (throttle position sensor), IAC (idle air control), and timing. DDFI 3 automatically zeros the TPS and adjusts fuel metering for smoother idle, eliminating service intervals and reducing the cost of ownership. A new progressive throttle cam and new throttle cables provide smoother throttle input from stops, and less rotation to full throttle.

a 'throttle position low' code

-thats usually from a race tuner application


-higher output oil pumps/crank driven, could cause this vacuum. note the lower oil level checks,possibly irradiant idling.

 

[07Bolt]

btw ur oil pump is a gerotor type. one pump spins inside another, plus running off the crank i would assume it could lead to a vacuum issue.

check ur ckp sensor; crank position sensor

 

[valet]

[confused]Hi I have exactly the same problem with UK bike if I start first thing in the morning and it is happen every time, OSTERSKA did you manage to fix startup issue?[mad]

 

[jmcamy]

I too have an 09 XB12XT, bought it in Jan, same problem, have been experiencing an unusually cold and long winter here in TX, temps in the teens at night at one point to the 30's. The problem was fouled plugs, they fouled on the cold, 124 mile ride home from the dealer, went to ride two weeks later and did what yours is doing. Cleaned the plugs and went riding, oil is also too thick, warranty will be void if we go 10W-40 so I added some marvel Mystery oil to the oil and Sea Foam to the fuel to help keep plugs clean. Just turned over 1K and did the break in service, thick goo both eng. and trans, latter being worse, primary chain needed abt. 1/4" slack taken up. Don't go for short rides, do the plug cleaning strategy outlined in a SB prior to first engine start. The bike runs very rich and still manages to run hot, hence the sooty plugs - rear in particular! The fan runs less now as it is breaking in, I intend to do break in service again at 2500 for good measure then switch to Amsoil synthetic. Give me a call 409-886-2412 for more details, my Suzuki did the same yrs. ago but not quite as bad, it uses 10W instead of 20W, I intend to use 10W after warranty is out for winter.

John

 

[jmcamy]

Oh, "Spark Plug Cleaning Strategy Reminder" from dealer SB: This is to clear residual fuel from the combustion chamber if a flooded engine or fouled spark plugs are suspected. Be sure motorcycle is in Neutral, Run/Stop switch and ignition switch off. Twist open throttle to wide open and hold, turn Run/Stop switch to Run, then turn on ignition switch. This will fire the spark plugs for approximately 4 seconds, burning any residual fuel and clear the plugs.
Had some pretty impressive backfires! I now do this prior to initial engine start, may have to repeat a few times, I also did the breather re-route, venting overboard, helped off idle response and lessened fouling somewhat, still too rich, intend to install K&N filter and fab my own exhaust. I also plan on installing a dual CHT gauge to monitor temps on both jugs. (aircraftspruce.com, Micro 1000 dual CHT )

 

[oisterska]

@ jmcamy: thanks for the info. The dealer doesn't think its the plugs, but I will certainly check. When I asked about getting new plugs, they said not to (not to go oem). Thanks again.

@valet: that sucks. I am going to call customer care and see what they can do for me. I plan to leave the bike with the dealer until they can ELIMINATE the problem. It is unacceptable that their product almost dumps me around the first corner when the thing stalls in the morning. I will PM you when they have a concrete solution for us. The dealership has to follow whatever corporate HD says to do for repairs, and the dealer said that it would be better for me (a customer) to call so they can start trying new avenues.

Anyway, I love my uly with to death, but am a bit dissappointed in the product. Will keep y'all posted.

 

[valet]

[sad][up][up] I have sold my now........reliff

 

[oisterska]

Update:

Talked to HD Cust Service or whatever. They were interested in helping, but never emailed me as promised. Apparently, they called the dealer, though. About 8-9 days after I called them, my dealer called asking if the problem persisted. I said yes, but if it is not threatening to the life of the engine, I would just as soon ride the bike through my spring break. After which, I plan on leaving the bike with them until it no longer does this. So, long story short, there is no real update! I will certainly post when a result is achieved!

 

[oisterska]

Okay, got the bike back from the dealer about a week ago. They did a tps reset and they reset my AFV. This seemed to solve the problem, however after a few days it still has the same issues. I wonder if it happens after the ECM relearns or something?

I told them I did not want the bike back until it was running properly. Sooo...

I will be taking it back in and calling HD Cust Care again sometime next week hopefully.

Another update will be forthcoming, but don't hold your breath folks. ...I am so sick of HD dealerships...

 

[oisterska]

Okay guys:

This is getting quite frustrating.

After my 4th flat rear tire in 10 months, and 6-8 months of this BS starting issue, I had my machine in to get the flat repaired and the starting issue resolved FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL. After talking with tech services (or whoever they call for tech advice) Rocky called me back with this information:

Tech services says that the starting issue is a result of the vacuum in the oil pump and that as far as they are concerned, it is not an issue.

UNACCEPTABLE.

That a fuel injected engine takes more than one or two tries to start is unacceptable. That a fuel injected engine take 5 tries to start is SIMPLY RIDICULOUS. That my motorcycle will die and almost drop me as I round a corner or die when stopped at a stoplight (unless I clutch it and keep on the throttle) is U-N-S-A-F-E.

If they had advertised the motorcycle as having this condition upon purchase, sure, let me deal with it. But I bought it new, brand new. I am so frustrated, I could type for pages. But I won't.

Tomorrow I will be calling HD Customer Care, demanding a new motorcycle, and calling my lawyer if there is any hint of non-compliance on their part. Nothing like a strongly-worded letter from a lawyer to grease the wheels these days, no?

Any advice from people who have requested/gotten their motorcycle switched for a new (I'd almost prefer a 2007 at this point) motorcycle would be helpful. I will keep you posted.