ecm required with a slip-on?

[maybebuell]

IM talking dyno runs that are made with upgrade ecm race kits pipes the whole combo. dont get 87 88 hp.....that dyno chart shows 87 88 hp with stock ecm with after market muffler......im using that dyno chart to prove my point...you richen up that dyno run your hp is down..those numbers are as good as one will get with stock motor...and much better them a full race kit 9 out of ten times...just helps my point ecm are not needed most of the time and the kit what ever money that is..$800.00 ? is not worth the extra 2 hp you might get

 

[BuellPastor]

Mr Drummer did say it was unecessary to do anything other than add his pipe.

 

[LeFox]

Mr Drummer did say it was unecessary to do anything other than add his pipe.

see above remark by BPG:

Some drummer pipes you can get away with running their pipe without tuning it. Check with them first. Since they are just basically a redone stock pipe it is possible.

--------------------------------

IM talking dyno runs that are made with upgrade ecm race kits pipes the whole combo. dont get 87 88 hp.....that dyno chart shows 87 88 hp with stock ecm with after market muffler......im using that dyno chart to prove my point...you richen up that dyno run your hp is down..those numbers are as good as one will get with stock motor...and much better them a full race kit 9 out of ten times...just helps my point ecm are not needed most of the time and the kit what ever money that is..$800.00 ? is not worth the extra 2 hp you might get

the purpose of the dyno i posted is not to refer to the hp you get, but it's to point out the air/fuel ratio, which is the cause for engine damage.
but if you wanna take it all out of context, whatever makes you happy...keep your money (700$ for a complete kit) and go buy a new engine after time.
i'll be the one saying "told you so!"
[up]

 

[maybebuell]

there is no engine damage happening there..where do you think a stock air fuel ratio is running at..just adding a pipe does not change air fuel.....purpose of the dyno chart shows if your not getting enough gas ..your not going to get those hp and torque numbers.......thanks for poasting chart for members to see....your not going to get numbers like that if your running to lean bottom line

 

[BuellPartsGuy]

your not going to get numbers like that if your running to lean bottom line

And you will be running lean modifying your bike and not doing some sort of tuner....

 

[maybebuell]

depends on mod i agree but that chart shows good air fuel ratio in safe zone...I here knowone disputing the hp and tq numbers being just as good or better with stock ecm and a clip on pipe......my point before about most full kits running rich and you said thats because they make best power rich.is not true....most are set up to rich loosing power ..you can play with the tuner all you want ..untill its dyno tuned at every 200 rpm you will be down on power thats another $300 for a proper tune.....now where up to $1000 best bang for the buck just add a muffler....if you rub your finger in your exhaust and its sooty on your finger tip black... your to rich loosing as much as 10 hp....and thats the main reason people dont get the numbers or performance they should with a full race kit numbers

 

[LeFox]

now...the part between 3500 & 400rpm where the line gets out of chart...the part where most bikes run at for 70% of the time.
is that running lean or running rich?

same bike, same dyno, tuned version

 

[BuellPartsGuy]

If the solid line on the bottom of the chart is the actual a/f ratio (not the dotted line) it bounces into extreme lean condition. It hardly gets on the rich side much at all, thats what I dont understand what maybebuell is trying to prove. It maintains a 12.9:1 or higher ratio at all times. Most of the time its above optimum 14.7:1 ratio which is lean.

Higher number = more lean

 

[LeFox]

i think there's some confusion somewhere...

chart 1: 1203cc, stock ecm, hp big oval & 45 headers

according to me there's a problem area round 3400-4100 that really needs attention (90% of which is above af15 = running to lean)

chart 2: 1203cc, race ecm, hp big oval & 45 headers

better, but still room for improvement...part round 3500rpm ok, but can improve.
note that the race ecm is made for the buell race exhaust, so another exhaust will have different results.

chart 3: 1203cc, direct link, hp big oval & 45 headers

i don't see the af going above 14, which should mean it's not running lean at all.

 

[maybebuell]

I see all hp numbers in the three charts very close to the same..matter of fact they all look the same like copys of each other..at each rpm through the range the numbers are the same down low and in upper rpm. 1 or two hp.air ratio is going to change with different days and runs and different temps........if there is not a drop off in hp and torque in any range your in the ball park....perhaps the drummer takes care of the lean spot between 3200 and 4200 rpm...eather way great numbers with just a clip on muffler.. perhaps the drummer if it can make some strong tq as shown in the charts and less hp could still be the best bang for the buck........ ok carry on leave some rubber tomorrow i know i will

 

[maybebuell]

All runs done with same pipe

 

[LeFox]

maybebuell, you wanna try and read things a bit better before making judgement.
i've posted these to look at the af so everyone can see what changes using standard ecm, race ecm or direct link, which is the actual Q in this topic.

since the exhaust is changed from standard to open (slip on) the airflow will increase, making the engine run more lean then programmed to with the standard muffler.
lean = no good for the engine and could cause major damage.
maybe you're lucky, maybe not...wanna take the chance, that's you're choice. you're old enough to make up you're own mind.

so, i'm not looking at hp, since 45mm headers are no slip on and these numbers can not be compared.
the af will not be the same either, but you can relate and see what does what.

fyi if you look good at the tq line in the last setup you can see that low-end tq is alot better.
and for some more info, this is not a jap racer...the 1203 thundertwin is a low rev engine which has no use for high hp, since you're redlining before you can use it. it's torque you need and that's what the mods are all about!

 

[BuellPastor]

I really have no idea what either say. Wish I did.

 

[maybebuell]

well paster thats why my bike is carb...this efi stuff
is a money pit..Lefox thanks for your time.....that lean zone on the chart would not be a problem for me....the dyno chart not the A/F CHART THE DYNO CHART looks good and strong and I dont feel would be a problem at wot your there for a blink of an eye...and cruzing down he highway at a steady speed in that lean zone..your butterfly is only cracked open and the A/F ratio wont read that high...your right about tq ...I pull a lot of high hp bikes on the highway..there running more hp but half the tq.......no reason they cant install from factory a program that adjust itself with pipe and air filter change

 

[LeFox]

no reason they cant install from factory a program that adjust itself with pipe and air filter change

it's not done because of environmental reasons. and mapped is still better performance to your needs & fitted parts, that's why a remapped ecm is still better than the race ecm.

cheapest performance change you can do with stock xb is cut he white wire going to the gray connector on the ecm.

I really have no idea what either say. Wish I did.

buellpastor, you want what is best for your bike?
use race ecm or even better, remap your ecm...you're tq will increase and acceleration will be much smoother.
but at the end of the day, the choice is yours and your bike will run with only slip on & standard ecm.

 

[BuellPastor]

LeFox - It is my intention to remap the ecm, add K&N, and likely a Drummer. (even though Mr Drummer says no remap is necessary). I really have liked the contact from Mr Drummer. The Jardine sounds awesome, but I don't want to buy a race ecm nor do I know what repacking is like - have heard it isn't bad. The Jardine does look nice too. I haven't seen a Drummer yet.

 

[LeFox]

well then to explain everything simple:

now, i'm not giving a guarantee that you will have engine damage when running with stock ecm and aftermarket exhaust, but the chance exists.
i am saying that your engine will run more healthy and smoother when changing ecm or prefferably remap.

 

[maybebuell]

i was thinking they where just a clip[ on i see there is a header system also...will the stock header with clipon help the lean on chart one..........the race ecm was just installed with no dyno tune ? on chart 2..........and on chart 3 was the stock ecm remap done with dyno tune..or was map already downloaded.....like i said before most race ecm are to rich if not dynoed tuned..thanks for info

 

[BuellPastor]

I understood the too lean and too rich aspect - but what are the two lines (one is solid, other dotted) Oh...and thanks

 

[LeFox]

will the stock header with clipon help the lean on chart one

a bit, but it will still be 2 lean...

the race ecm was just installed with no dyno tune ?

race ecm installed with required learn-in period before testing.

was the stock ecm remap done with dyno tune

it's a dyno-tuned remap...remapping with pre-made downloaded maps blows.

like i said before most race ecm are to rich if not dynoed tuned

race-ecm is mapped for 'race' use and actually mapped using the buell race exhaust.
all you can do is make sure the learn-in period is correctly done.