I picked up a real nice 2009 Ulysses recently. PO said nothing about this issue, of course, but after t/s'ing why the battery kept going dead I found that the fuel pump does not turn off. Kill switch off, key removed, pump continues to run. Removing the pump fuse is the only thing will stop it. With fuse in I disconnected the ecm and Ignition switch plug, no help. I have removed the fuel pump hoping to find an issue with the wiring but all was good. I replaced the regulator while I was in there. To make the bike rideable I have made an inline fuse holder and added an on/off switch that I can turn the pump off and on. Has anyone else had or heard of this? The constant power to the pump makes me think there is a hot wire chaffed to the pump wire somewhere. I did unwrap a little of the harness where the pump harness meets the main harness forward of the fuse box, nothing obvious there. Just about at wits end here, any help would be greatly appreciated.
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fuel pump will not stop running
- Thread starter ajax5777
- Start date
Help Support Buellxb Forum:
Barrett
Well-known member
Not that uncommon as these XB's continue to age. With key ON...kill switch to ON...10A pump fuse OK... and your pump continues to run after initially charging the fuel system, it's one or more of the following:
1-Pin hole and/or crack in the fuel pump high pressure supply line. It is the line that connects pump motor outlet to regulator housing.
2-Yellow/Red + feed pump wire grounded to pump housing.
3-Gray - feed pump wire grounded to pump housing.
4-#2 above chafed within main wiring harness and shorting to positive feed wire
5-#3 above """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """" """ to negative feed wire
Your trouble-shooting revealed the 2 main clues: The problem is not ECM related and most likely not positive feed wire related. Pump circuitry works by the pump being fed continuous 12V positive with key and kill switch to ON...BAS in "run position"....ECM supplying interrupted negative ground to pump to activate it. I would narrow my search down to the negative ground feed circuitry supplying the pump as well as the BAS switch. It is extremely rare but once saw a faulty BAS keep the pump activated at all times regardless of key and kill switch positions.
There is a very simple electrical test to identify and isolate this problem.
You're welcome.
1-Pin hole and/or crack in the fuel pump high pressure supply line. It is the line that connects pump motor outlet to regulator housing.
2-Yellow/Red + feed pump wire grounded to pump housing.
3-Gray - feed pump wire grounded to pump housing.
4-#2 above chafed within main wiring harness and shorting to positive feed wire
5-#3 above """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" """" """ to negative feed wire
Your trouble-shooting revealed the 2 main clues: The problem is not ECM related and most likely not positive feed wire related. Pump circuitry works by the pump being fed continuous 12V positive with key and kill switch to ON...BAS in "run position"....ECM supplying interrupted negative ground to pump to activate it. I would narrow my search down to the negative ground feed circuitry supplying the pump as well as the BAS switch. It is extremely rare but once saw a faulty BAS keep the pump activated at all times regardless of key and kill switch positions.
There is a very simple electrical test to identify and isolate this problem.
You're welcome.
While I had the pump out I inspected all wires and all looked fine. As a precaution I heat shrinked the wires with fuel resistant shrink. I checked ALL fuses, none blown. I swapped all four relays into different positions. I had purchased a repair kit that had the regulator, and replaced that. The kit also had a new supply line you mentioned and replaced that. You mention problems with the pump continuing to prime with key and kill switch ON, my problem is the pump is running with kill switch OFF and key REMOVED. Questions: 1. Sorry but what is the BAS? 2. Is there supposed to be continuous power to the pump with key and kill off. At the disconnected of the bike harness and pump harness the pin for the gray wire is hot all the time. 3. Is there another relay in the system besides the four at the fuse box?
Thanks for the input, really appreciate it.
Thanks for the input, really appreciate it.
Barrett
Well-known member
I realize that and only mentioned continuous pump running with key and kill switch ON as it is becoming a common problem. Your problem as stated is with both OFF.
#1-Bank Angle Sensor
#2-NO. Gray is the feed wire and should NOT be hot with key and kill switch both OFF
#3-NO
Simple test as follows but first confirm that your 2009 wiring is the same as schematic below, as the black should be system ground. This test with pump mounted in frame should isolate the wiring problem and fault:
Unplug pump wiring harness from main harness
Locate the gray wire within the pump wiring harness
Using a long thin metal probe such as the probe of a simple test light....connect the one end of test light to ground...connect a 12V positive feed wire from + battery terminal to test light probe. USE CAUTION WHEN DOING THIS
Confirm test light illuminates
Now push test light probe into the pump wiring harness where the gray wire resides
Pump should now activate
If this test activates pump you have now ID'd the gray wire as the source of the problem. It is receiving a positive current flow when key and kill both off and should not be. Cause is either failed ECM or positive short somewhere in the wiring loom or relay system. Know you switched them around but possibility is a failing Key Switch relay.
#1-Bank Angle Sensor
#2-NO. Gray is the feed wire and should NOT be hot with key and kill switch both OFF
#3-NO
Simple test as follows but first confirm that your 2009 wiring is the same as schematic below, as the black should be system ground. This test with pump mounted in frame should isolate the wiring problem and fault:
Unplug pump wiring harness from main harness
Locate the gray wire within the pump wiring harness
Using a long thin metal probe such as the probe of a simple test light....connect the one end of test light to ground...connect a 12V positive feed wire from + battery terminal to test light probe. USE CAUTION WHEN DOING THIS
Confirm test light illuminates
Now push test light probe into the pump wiring harness where the gray wire resides
Pump should now activate
If this test activates pump you have now ID'd the gray wire as the source of the problem. It is receiving a positive current flow when key and kill both off and should not be. Cause is either failed ECM or positive short somewhere in the wiring loom or relay system. Know you switched them around but possibility is a failing Key Switch relay.
I confirmed constant power at the bike side of the harness connector for the gray pin, with kill and key off and all four relays and both ecm plugs removed. This kind of leads me to what I don't want to hear and you stated, "positive short somewhere in the wiring loom or relay system" ugh! Would you agree with that? One thing I did notice using a test light probe is the fuse for ignition is constantly powered also, which I think is normal, just seems a little suspicious that it is the fuse right next to the fuel pump fuse. I think I might start with pulling the fuse box top off to see if anything is jacked up in there. Really just trying to make sure I'm not missing something obvious or easy cause I reall don't want to dig into the harness...
Barrett
Well-known member
Don't rip anything else apart at this point. I have my 2007 XB City Cross in my shop for refreshing from storage. It is virtually new with 250 original miles on it and obviously never fiddled with. Give me a few days to go thru the pump wiring setup and see if I can narrow this down for you. In the interim, you should consult your SM and view the various pump schematics for wiring confirmation. Free download of the SM available with link on here if you don't own one.
Is your battery installed backwards? Or the incorrect battery? All XB's use an ETX-14....NOT the L model, which has reversed terminals. Viewing battery from front of bike as installed, the negative terminal is on the shifter side...positive on rear brake pedal side.
Is your battery installed backwards? Or the incorrect battery? All XB's use an ETX-14....NOT the L model, which has reversed terminals. Viewing battery from front of bike as installed, the negative terminal is on the shifter side...positive on rear brake pedal side.
njloco
Well-known member
He is the MAN ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ !
Barrett
Well-known member
Sir: The below is as far as I can take you on this dilemma. I have checked the wiring looms on 3 XB fuel pumps in my shop waiting for rebuilds. They are 2005-2009 inclusive pumps. Wiring schematics identical as per below. I just spoke with Harley Davidson York production manager Richie Fuller, who put me in contact with the plant electrical guru who shall remain anonymous. The XB series fuel pump sans the 2010 model year, operate and are wired virtually identical to all H-D XL and XR series twins. The XB service manual section regarding pump wiring is very confusing and the schematic virtually unreadable.
PUMP HARNESS HAS 4 DISTINCT WIRES AS FOLLOWS:
YELLOW/RED TRACER IS FUEL LEVEL SENSOR FEED WIRE TO ECM
YELLOW/BROWN TRACER IS PUMP SIGNAL TRIGGER FEED WIRE TO ECM
BLACK IS GROUND FOR ENTIRE PUMP BODY...MOTOR HOUSING...FUEL LEVEL SENSOR HOUSING
GRAY IS SWITCHED POSITIVE FEED WIRE TO PUMP
Factory suggests the following be investigated pursuant to your problem:
Gray wire is switched. It also feeds both fuel injectors and 2 sensors. It should NOT be live with ignition switched off. Therefore, check for faulty ignition switch that is keeping it live after switch turned off.
Gray wire has shorted to another non-switched positive wire...making it live at all times regardless of switch position.
Battery installed backwards either now or in the past.
Battery cables installed backwards.
Failed ECM
Short occurring or corrosion occurring in fuse box between ignition fuse and battery fuse
Long-shot but fuse box Diode replaced with standard fuse...or installed backwards. Both scenarios would allow positive current to flow backwards thru part of the electrical system
PUMP HARNESS HAS 4 DISTINCT WIRES AS FOLLOWS:
YELLOW/RED TRACER IS FUEL LEVEL SENSOR FEED WIRE TO ECM
YELLOW/BROWN TRACER IS PUMP SIGNAL TRIGGER FEED WIRE TO ECM
BLACK IS GROUND FOR ENTIRE PUMP BODY...MOTOR HOUSING...FUEL LEVEL SENSOR HOUSING
GRAY IS SWITCHED POSITIVE FEED WIRE TO PUMP
Factory suggests the following be investigated pursuant to your problem:
Gray wire is switched. It also feeds both fuel injectors and 2 sensors. It should NOT be live with ignition switched off. Therefore, check for faulty ignition switch that is keeping it live after switch turned off.
Gray wire has shorted to another non-switched positive wire...making it live at all times regardless of switch position.
Battery installed backwards either now or in the past.
Battery cables installed backwards.
Failed ECM
Short occurring or corrosion occurring in fuse box between ignition fuse and battery fuse
Long-shot but fuse box Diode replaced with standard fuse...or installed backwards. Both scenarios would allow positive current to flow backwards thru part of the electrical system
Last edited:
Rays
Well-known member
John, please excuse the interruption - the power for the fuel pump is indeed switched in the pre-2008 XB's and is shared between the fuel pump and fuel injectors, sensors but in the 2008-2009 models it is hot via the 10A fuel pump fuse (and the 30A battery fuse).
I just went and physically double checked this on my 2009 Uly to confirm this is correct as it is years since I have played in this area.
Therefore, it would seem the issue from the OP is related to the switched ground from the ECM.
If the pump is still running with the Black ECM plug removed and it is certain the internal wiring of the pump is OK then the issue looks like a ground short in the Brn/Yel wire between the fuel pump and ECM plug.
This wire is spliced at some point as it connects to two pins on the ECM - there isn't a lot of loom to check as the Black ECM plug isn't that far from the fuel pump connector.
Having said that, I just had a close look at my 2009 loom and there isn't any obvious ground chafing points between the fuel pump connector and the Black ECM plug but it will be easy enough to eliminate.
The two wires at the #ECM end are visible in the lower LH side of the connector (pin 27 & 28). With the Black ECM plug disconnected and the fuel pump plug disconnected there should not be any resistance between either of those pins and chassis ground.
Ray
I just went and physically double checked this on my 2009 Uly to confirm this is correct as it is years since I have played in this area.
Therefore, it would seem the issue from the OP is related to the switched ground from the ECM.
If the pump is still running with the Black ECM plug removed and it is certain the internal wiring of the pump is OK then the issue looks like a ground short in the Brn/Yel wire between the fuel pump and ECM plug.
This wire is spliced at some point as it connects to two pins on the ECM - there isn't a lot of loom to check as the Black ECM plug isn't that far from the fuel pump connector.
Having said that, I just had a close look at my 2009 loom and there isn't any obvious ground chafing points between the fuel pump connector and the Black ECM plug but it will be easy enough to eliminate.
The two wires at the #ECM end are visible in the lower LH side of the connector (pin 27 & 28). With the Black ECM plug disconnected and the fuel pump plug disconnected there should not be any resistance between either of those pins and chassis ground.
Ray
Well, I removed the loom from the bike side at the fuel pump connector to the black ecm conn. Found the bwn/y wire splice, it looked clean and secure. I did find some insulation and wire damage on the single wire before the splice, probably caused by me removing the loom. Repaired that damage and covered with heat shrink. I removed the bottom cover of the fuse box, all looks clean and well connected in there, and no fuses every blow. I checked the ground wires for the black ecm conn, the bike side and pump side of the pump harness, all show no resistance. Loosened and resecured the grounds for the battery and the one next to the fuse box with several wires attached. With the ignition switch plug, all four relays, the bas plug and both ecm conn's removed, the pump is still powered and running. Looking at the wiring diagram, which is very confusing, it appears as Rays said the fuel pump is hot at the fuse box, and it is, as well as everything else connected to the same wire per the diagram. I guess my question is, under normal operation, what turns the pump off and keeps it from running with ignition and kill off? Since I have the ecm plug off should I try jumping the two bwn/y wires together? Getting a bit frustrated....
Rays
Well-known member
The fuse box diode is a pre-2008 item that provides isolation between the clutch switch and the neutral switch - this is handled by the ECM in the 2008-2009 so not fitted (I have no idea about the 2010).
I will have a further dig into the pump wiring on my 2009 Uly later today but in theory with the ECM black plug disconnected there is no switched ground connection possible for the fuel pump.
If the internals of the pump are definitely Ok and you have verified the physical wiring from fuel pump connector to ECM connector then the only thing I can think that might be wrong (it is a wild-arse guess) is that the ground and fuel pump switched ground wires are swapped in the fuel pump/main loom Deutsch connector?
That would give you a constantly running fuel pump and a low fuel light that may or may not work depending on what sort of ground the pump body found though the physical connection to the frame.
I confess that is highly unlikely but very easy to eliminate.
Are you comfortable with de-pinning a Deutsch connector? - if not please let me know and I can post up a quick tutorial.
However, assuming the wires are connected like for like in the fuel pump connector and you still have the issue, I would disconnect the Brown/Yellow wire (pin 4) from the loom connector as another isolation step.
Note: be very careful playing around with the pins in the fuel pump plug given the FP power is hot - very easy to short that out. I would suggest removing the fuel pump fuse at least before opening up the loom side plug if you decide to do that.
Ray
I will have a further dig into the pump wiring on my 2009 Uly later today but in theory with the ECM black plug disconnected there is no switched ground connection possible for the fuel pump.
If the internals of the pump are definitely Ok and you have verified the physical wiring from fuel pump connector to ECM connector then the only thing I can think that might be wrong (it is a wild-arse guess) is that the ground and fuel pump switched ground wires are swapped in the fuel pump/main loom Deutsch connector?
That would give you a constantly running fuel pump and a low fuel light that may or may not work depending on what sort of ground the pump body found though the physical connection to the frame.
I confess that is highly unlikely but very easy to eliminate.
Are you comfortable with de-pinning a Deutsch connector? - if not please let me know and I can post up a quick tutorial.
However, assuming the wires are connected like for like in the fuel pump connector and you still have the issue, I would disconnect the Brown/Yellow wire (pin 4) from the loom connector as another isolation step.
Note: be very careful playing around with the pins in the fuel pump plug given the FP power is hot - very easy to short that out. I would suggest removing the fuel pump fuse at least before opening up the loom side plug if you decide to do that.
Ray
Barrett
Well-known member
I had passed along info to you, supplied to me, from the factory. One small portion of it mentioned diode placement. If the DDFI-3 electronics and ECM system don't use it as Ray mentioned, then clearly not a consideration for you.
Regarding your question "what turns the pump on and off"? Your ECM does, via the "trigger wire" which, for your pump, is the Yellow/Brown wire. The trigger wire completes the circuit to the pump electric motor via ground and switching it ON. Seems evident this critical problem existed when you purchased the bike. With everything unplugged that you listed and 10A pump fuse remaining IN place and the pump continuing to run, the reason is quite simple and can only be caused by 2 possibilities: The pump has either found its own ground signal......OR the PO prior to your purchase, installed a pre-2008 new or used pump assembly which has different wiring orientation because the pump-to-harness plug is different. PO clearly would have known this problem existed when he sold it to you. Contact him and ask specifics about the pump.
In conjunction with what Ray mentioned, if the bike were here in my shop I'd simply do the following:
Check the pump plug wiring orientation vs. the harness connector plug wiring orientation and see if they are identical.
If so, then I'd remove the pump assembly from the frame, replace the pump motor and closely check the internal pump wires for chafing or shorts to the grounded pump assembly, and prior to reinstalling the pump assembly into the frame, plug the pump into the harness, turn on both KEY and KILL switch and see if problem resolved. That would be my procedure.
Rays
Well-known member
.OR the PO prior to your purchase, installed a pre-2008 new or used pump assembly which has different wiring orientation because the pump-to-harness plug is different./QUOTE]
John, If I was a betting man I think that would have my money - I just checked a 2006 pump and given the pump wires are all the same colour and function but a very different orientation in the 4-pin plug it would be pretty easy to screw up.
For ajax5777, this is a shot of an original '09 Uly fuel pump connector for reference. (it is a Deutsch DTM connector).
Ray
First off, I REALLY appreciate both of you taking the time to help me t/s this problem. I just looked at the harness and the pump side is the same as the picture and matches the bike side of the harness. The only difference, and don't think it makes any difference is the gray wire in the pump harness matches up with a kind of light orange with white or gray stripe on the bike side. The other three match up with same colors so the gray has to be correct by default. I had already considered that it could just be a bad pump as I had already inspected the pump wiring and heat shrinked them to prevent chaffing. So I guess either the pump is shorting/grounding internally or could it possibly be the harness is shorting where it goes through the the pump mount plate grommet? I think when I pull the pump it would make sense to push the grommet out and check the wires condition. Another thing I didn't think to check with the pump out was if the wires were connected to the proper spades. Please let me know if you think there is anything else I could check while I have the pump out. When I did have the pump out it appeared someone had been in there before me. Quantum has a pump kit for $80 and I will get that going today. Fingers crossed...
34nineteen
Well-known member
Barrett
Well-known member
My pleasure and I know Ray will appreciate the kudos as well. He's a great guy from OZ and is absolutely brilliant with these sort of things, as well as a host of other mechanical pursuits. I have a 2009 in my shop right now. Let me check the wiring harness for you, as Ray did, and confirm what you mentioned re gray to orange-ish wire grouping.
Absolutely hate to slam any outfit on here but I'd be very hesitant to buy a "rebuild kit" from Quantum. If you're going to keep this Ulysses and go to the major work of a full pump R&R and rebuild plus bench testing, then rebuild with correct quality components. Quantum regulators...pressure hoses....electric motors....have questionable correctness and quality. Either myself or Chaz Aagaard from Aagaard Foundry can fix you up with a full complete correct kit. They're not cheap.
Absolutely hate to slam any outfit on here but I'd be very hesitant to buy a "rebuild kit" from Quantum. If you're going to keep this Ulysses and go to the major work of a full pump R&R and rebuild plus bench testing, then rebuild with correct quality components. Quantum regulators...pressure hoses....electric motors....have questionable correctness and quality. Either myself or Chaz Aagaard from Aagaard Foundry can fix you up with a full complete correct kit. They're not cheap.
I did come across the Aagaard kit. And yes not cheap but complete, including the low fuel sender. I agree, if I'm going to be in there, again, use good parts for the long haul. Thanks for the feedback on that. Will let you know how it all works out.
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