Hard start after sitting for several hours.

[ocgreenmachine]

Recently, I've noticed that in the morning when I get ready to go to work that it takes 8+ cranks or a pause and a second attempt for the engine to turn on. This means that if I was to crank it once or twice, release the starter and wait for the bike to prime again, it starts right up. I initially thought it was due to the cold weather in the morning since after getting to the gas station near work it would fire right up after I fill up with no issues. However, it appears that after the bike sits for several hours, this issue surfaces. I have a feeling that it is an issue with the fuel pump priming properly since it fires up after I pause and allow the pump to prime a second time after attempting to fire up the bike the first time. Anyone else have experience with symptoms like these?

 

[Chicknstripn]

Sounds to me like you have a battery issue. Only time I've experienced the same symptoms as what you just described has been when my battery terminals had come loose. Also experienced the same type of hard start when the stock battery was on its way out.
If you're running a fancy schmancy lithium iron battery the cold, usually around 40 and below, will make such batteries mimic the above behavior.
How old is your battery?
You sure the terminals are good and tight?
And what type of battery is it?

 

[ocgreenmachine]

It is a Shorai lithium. I'm in Southern California where the temperature is in the 50's in the morning when I leave the house and goes up to the 80's in afternoon. It is cranking fine, and this symptom isn't happening only in the morning when it is cold... It happens after sitting 5+ hours between starts. Also, if it is the battery, the engine wouldn't fire right up if I let it crank twice, release the starter, wait for the engine to prime again and hit the starter again. I've let the engine get back to ambient temperature (about an hour of sitting) and started it and it starts right up. Someone I know who rides says that in some bikes there's a check valve that holds the fuel pressure in the line. Do our bikes have one, and if there is a slight leak, would it cause it to have an issue starting the first time after sitting for a long time?

 

[Chicknstripn]

My bike has sat for months and after charging the battery, it's started right up.
I was just suggesting, if you were operating your bike in cold temps, that the battery may be exhibiting a "wake up" phase. My lithium battery does this. Only reason I suggested it.
But you're right 50 is not cold enough to cause those issues.
How many miles are on your bike?
What does the fuel pump sound like when it primes?
Have you gone through the wiring to insure you don't have a loose ground or frayed wire somewhere?
How old is your battery?
If everything checks out I'd pull the pump to give it a good ole rebuild; screen, filter, check for frayed wiring on pump body(very common issue) and possibly replace the pump if all those things check out.
There are lots of threads related to fuel pump rebuilds. The good ones cover pump compatibility, parts cross reference on screens, filter and pumps. The parts can be found for a fraction of the cost of new.

 

[user_deleted]

signs of a fuel pump headed to death row:
1-off throttle on decel.....round a bend....throttle back up and hesitation
2-rolling the throttle on from normal cruise to ascend a hill or similar on-throttle and hesitation/bog.
3-bike sits overnite, pump primes normally, refuses to start on first try...repeat start procedure until it cooperates and starts.
4-high pitched whining noise from pump after bike has sat a week or longer on initial start-up.
yes to your question on regulator. on the pump assembly is a filter, the low fuel level sensor, and a pressure regulator.

 

[ocgreenmachine]

hmm... looks like maybe I need to check that pump... Thanks all!

Chicknstripn, there are about 32,000 miles on the bike, the pump sounds normal when I turn it on, I have checked wiring and grounds.

Lunaticfringe, any idea how long a pump may last after these failure symptoms start showing up? I only have symptom #3

 

[Chicknstripn]

I had a pump, it's actually the one that is still in my bike, have symptoms 3 and 4 going on. It was around 30k that it happened.
I pulled the pump and discover the filter screen and filter were totally clogged up. Also discover that the wiring for the pump, that is found on the pump assembly(inside the frame/tank) was grounding out on the pump body.
I repaired the wiring and replaced both filter and filter screen.
I still have that same pump in my bike and my bike has almost 43k on it.
Check out this thread:
http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?38173-DIY-Fuel-pump-fix-Cheaper-than-replacement-from-HD
I think you'll find A TON of useful info on the thread I linked.
Good luck

 

[ocgreenmachine]

Thanks! I remember reading that thread a while back... I also read that the 08+ pumps didn't have the wire chafing issue. Checking the filter is probably a good idea

 

[ocgreenmachine]

Ok, I pulled the pump, replaced the pump, filter, strainer and reinstalled. I also replaced the battery with one I had picked up recently. Bike runs fine, but still has the hard starting issue when it has been sitting for several hours.

Anyone have any ideas of any other possible causes for this? The issue doesn't seem to be so much of whether the engine is cold or not because it starts right up (1-2 cranks) after 1-2 hours of sitting, but after sitting a whole night or an entire day, it takes about 7 cranks to start. I am thinking somehow fuel in the line is losing pressure as it sits and requires the pump to re-pressurize the line before it will fire up?

 

[ocgreenmachine]

I replaced the fuel regulator today... Looks like the regulator isn't the problem... Any idea what else it could be?

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Maybe we should test it.

 

[ocgreenmachine]

Jacob, anything that we can test on a same day visit? I may be able to come down on a Monday.

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Closed most mondays, I can make an exception at some point Im sure. We can test Fuel pressure, check the Air Fuel Value, log engine data and review, compare fuel maps So Bring your ECMs, check ignition system, engine compression and others Im sure, but remember its a business and it has bills

 

[Tbone]

How's the cleanliness of the fuel injectors, Throttle body, intake valves, IAV, pistons, etc... my bike will run, start, and even stop like crap if I do not keep adding a fuel system cleaner especially when doing a lot of stop and go as when commuting everyday.

 

[ztied]

My 02 cents on simular issue, long story short the wires coming from my ignition switch, would loose contact. My wires were tight on the bottom of my ignition after replacing the triple tree, bike would start fine first trip , then I would hit the gym and come out and either start and die, or wouldnT start, sometimes pump would start then stop, or not start. Fingered the wires at bottom of ignition switch,and would start after a few tries, finally pulled the ignition, and and cut and inch of just pass then bend(which stretched and riped internally).
May or may not help, but listen to see if the fuel pump is priming for the full length, when you hit the key
Good luck

 

[ocgreenmachine]

I also changed out my spark plugs and wires. Both plugs were a nice tan color after 10,000 miles.

Jacob, how much do you charge for the above mentioned diagnostics? I also still owe you guys lunch.

 

[Chewie]

Could it be a spark issue? Im not sure exactly what it could be, but no one seems to have brought it up. I just wanted to introduce the possibility so the experts can throw in their opinion.

 

[Theycallmecrash]

$95 is the usual diagnostic charge. Try not to worry about money too much, you could chase this forever without the right equipment. If you have to owe me a few more lunches lets get it figured out

 

[ocgreenmachine]

Could it be a spark issue? Im not sure exactly what it could be, but no one seems to have brought it up. I just wanted to introduce the possibility so the experts can throw in their opinion.

New spark plugs, wires and batter and old plugs looked great when I removed them. Also, it starts up just fine after the initial startup (i.e. if I stop to eat or get gas, starts right back up within 2 cranks). Only has the hard starting after sitting for several hours (about 6-8 cranks to start.)

Jacob, I will get myself a hall pass from the wife and schedule a visit .

 

[Theycallmecrash]

Updating Greenmachines post. We finally got it into the shop, a few tests we determined it was leaking valve seals, tear down confirmed both intake valve seals heavily leaking.