Harley being sued over air cooled engine-
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There are posts on the HD forums about rear cylinders showing temps in excess of 300 degrees. The problem is HD can't really do anything about it. They didn't upgrade to liquid cooling when emission standards went up. Plus they increased displacement twice. So they are caught between their own greed on one side and the EPA on the other. It may be easy to dismiss this at face value, but I would suggest you test ride one of these bikes in 90 degree traffic first. Evo and TC88 owners aren't the ones complaining. It's the new larger motors that have been leaned to hell and back to meet EPA emissions.
Know that the EPA doesn't care how you meet these standards, just that they are met. So HD chose a route that caused ridiculous rear cylinder heat. So much so that the newer model's ECU shuts down the rear cylinder at stop lights to reduce heat.
Personally I would just sell the bike if I couldn't fix it. However some riders love their bike and just want it to work properly. Trust me they deserve some leeway on this one.
Ride safe,
Jim
Know that the EPA doesn't care how you meet these standards, just that they are met. So HD chose a route that caused ridiculous rear cylinder heat. So much so that the newer model's ECU shuts down the rear cylinder at stop lights to reduce heat.
Personally I would just sell the bike if I couldn't fix it. However some riders love their bike and just want it to work properly. Trust me they deserve some leeway on this one.
Ride safe,
Jim
captain chaos
Well-known member
Believe it or not, there is grounds for this lawsuit. Heat from the rear cylinder is a very real problem on newer Harley's. I used to spend a lot of time over on HD forums and there were posts pretty much daily asking about how to reduce the heat. One guy, in particular, said he burned his leg bad enough on his 30min ride home from the dealer (after buying a brand new bike) that his leg blistered, THROUGH HIS PANTS. He was riding in jeans and still blistered his right leg (without touching the exhaust). That's not just "a normal air cooled motor", that's a design flaw. Guys with shorter legs seem to be particularly troubled by the heat as their legs get too close to that rear cylinder. It's not the exhaust that's the problem, per sey, (exhaust heat is ALWAYS a problem) but the heat from the cylinder head itself.
The real problem is a piss-poor engine design by Harley (GASP!). I've ridden a number of air cooled twins and have never been burned without doing something stupid like touching the pipes. My Buell was HOT (especially in that heat wave we had this year) but I never felt like I was in danger of being burned, just uncomfortable. I've ridden a couple of Yamaha Warriors and depsite having a 102" air cooled pushrod motor (very similar to Harley's current 103 except the Yamaha makes more power) and barely even noticed the heat off of them. Victory has a 106" air cooled motor making about 15hp more than Harley's 103 and there are no lawsuits against them (although I hear they do run hot).
The problem lies in Harleys design. Read up on the history and development of the "twin cam". Cylinder heat was a major devopmental problem from the beginning. They were overheating the oil in test engines so to fix the problem they simply restricted the oil to the head to the bare minimum needed for the valvetrain. This kept the oil cooler by keeping most of it out of the screaming hot top end but it allowed the heads to get HOT. Adding an oil cooler was dismissed as an option because they felt it wouldn't "look right" on the bike. Once again style won out over functionality with Harley.
The heat wasn't a huge issue with the older bikes as emission requiements were less strict and the old 88's made about as much hp as your average lawn mower.
Personally, I hope they win big. I hope it's a swift kick to the nuts for Harley and will force them to stop thinking their invincable and can do whatever they want (GM anybody???) and start making some decent bikes with some decent power instead of the uncompetitively powered butt jewlry their currently cranking out. It took a lawsuit from several police depatments and some bad press to make them upgrade their "hinged in the middle" touring bike frames in 09 (I think). Maybe this will produce a competitive engine from them for once.
Do some research on HD sometime. There's a LOT more to hate about them that the whole "closing dwon Buell" fiasco.
The real problem is a piss-poor engine design by Harley (GASP!). I've ridden a number of air cooled twins and have never been burned without doing something stupid like touching the pipes. My Buell was HOT (especially in that heat wave we had this year) but I never felt like I was in danger of being burned, just uncomfortable. I've ridden a couple of Yamaha Warriors and depsite having a 102" air cooled pushrod motor (very similar to Harley's current 103 except the Yamaha makes more power) and barely even noticed the heat off of them. Victory has a 106" air cooled motor making about 15hp more than Harley's 103 and there are no lawsuits against them (although I hear they do run hot).
The problem lies in Harleys design. Read up on the history and development of the "twin cam". Cylinder heat was a major devopmental problem from the beginning. They were overheating the oil in test engines so to fix the problem they simply restricted the oil to the head to the bare minimum needed for the valvetrain. This kept the oil cooler by keeping most of it out of the screaming hot top end but it allowed the heads to get HOT. Adding an oil cooler was dismissed as an option because they felt it wouldn't "look right" on the bike. Once again style won out over functionality with Harley.
The heat wasn't a huge issue with the older bikes as emission requiements were less strict and the old 88's made about as much hp as your average lawn mower.
Personally, I hope they win big. I hope it's a swift kick to the nuts for Harley and will force them to stop thinking their invincable and can do whatever they want (GM anybody???) and start making some decent bikes with some decent power instead of the uncompetitively powered butt jewlry their currently cranking out. It took a lawsuit from several police depatments and some bad press to make them upgrade their "hinged in the middle" touring bike frames in 09 (I think). Maybe this will produce a competitive engine from them for once.
Do some research on HD sometime. There's a LOT more to hate about them that the whole "closing dwon Buell" fiasco.
firefighter1c57
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2008
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- 872
I'd rather see them sued by the federal government for taking 25 million in "stimulus money", and then killing 200 American Jobs by closing down Buell.
BuellyBagger
Well-known member
they got stimilus money??? i dont feel very stimulated
firefighter1c57
Well-known member
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- Jun 4, 2008
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They now have a idle control thing on I believe everything but the sporty.
Basically when you come to a stop there is a procedure you can do that will turn off the back cylinder.
But its really mostly an issue with the glides cause the back cylinder has no easy way to breathe, just like our XBs, which is why we have a fan.
Basically when you come to a stop there is a procedure you can do that will turn off the back cylinder.
But its really mostly an issue with the glides cause the back cylinder has no easy way to breathe, just like our XBs, which is why we have a fan.
the mcdonald's issue wasn't just a stupid customer. the warming plate temperature that the coffee was set on was 3 or 4 degrees hotter than what was considered safe for consumption. to reference better, taking a drink from a cup of their coffee that had just been poured would have been hot enough to blister your mouth. however, if you're dumb enough to set a disposable cup of coffee between their legs while they drive deserves to get burned for their stupidity
she wasnt driving the car was parked and she spilled it giving her 3rd degree burns over 16% of her body.the temp of the coffe was 180-190 degrees the from our home coffe makers is 130-140 mcdonalds got what they deserved.with millions of cups served a day the chances of someone spilling was pretty high
Kole_DeWoody
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- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 299
If you think some of these harley motors get hot then you should ride one of the new r1 around town on a hot day that still have the stock cat. It is absolutely ridiculous if you are not wearing full boots with jeans tucked in you will get burnt and dont even think about touching the frame. Makes me think my buell runs cool in the texas summer.
Zeroflat24
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2011
- Messages
- 1,219
My buddy just bought a new r1. After a 45 min ride his seat was over 20 degrees hotter than my 12r ( used a laser heat gun). We are forever standing up while riding to "let our junk cool down" his bike gets so hot I don't know how his seat doesn't melt. So it's not just HD bikes. A motorcycle is an engine with a tranny and 2 wheels, what do people expect? Engines get hot, heat rises.
My seat isn't the problem with the bike it's that right leg that gets freaking hot. It's not bad when it's in the 50's or 60's when you're riding on a highway at quicker speeds but when it's hotter than that it's pretty uncomfortable. At least when it's cold out, it warm your leg fairly well.
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