Idle Surge

[Tacolover]

Repost from troubleshooting section...

Bought a 06 Ulysses from a friend with only 800 documented miles on it December 2012. Box stock ran very well but hated that sound. Sent my muffler KD Fab/Drummer and returned as "The Original Drummer." Added the K&N air filter/no airbox mods. Bought the ERIK BUELL race ecm, took it to a Harley Dealer and had TPS reset. Bike ran well but started loading up on short rides. Pulled plus, front plug center electrode had a 35-40 degree angle facing away from ground electrode. Sooty running rich and wet under compression washer. EBR suggested the Champion 10R12X instead of the 10R12A's. Changed them out, bike ran well for 50-miles then now she is very cold blooded. Starts well, idles then backpops through throttle body for 1st 1/4 mile then fairly smooth after that.

However when warm/hot the bike surges at idle badly. I'm talking 1050 rpm then drops to 800 rpm then up to 1500 then back to 1050 and keeps cycling.

I have only logged 2-tanks of gas through it and fuel was not completely out so there still may be some remaining old fuel in tank. At times there are exhaust backpops on deceleration and sometimes not. Can't figure this out. This is the 1st fuel injected bike owned. I can tune/rejet a carb well but this has me stumped.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

Please and Thank you...

 

[user_deleted]

taco: i'm sure someone will chime in with more ecm knowledge than i have but if the dealer did your tps reset and the CEL is not on i would tend to think it is in the programming of the race ecm you have installed....a problem with the ecm. have you contacted buell racing about this? the surging idle sure seems to be ecm related. IMO

 

[Tacolover]

Thank you for your reply and yes I have. EBR instructed me to change plugs to the newer design 10R12X and look at the intake seals. I looked at them best I could when removed airbox to change plugs. Makes little sense to me as the bike ran very well with stock pipe and ecm. Again seems strange the idle seems to be cycling trying to get back to the 1050 idle rpm. All I am going to do today is take it up on the highway and cruise it a few miles 55-60 mph while other times vary speed and opening up throttle to WOT.

Thanks again

 

[user_deleted]

yes sir, you're quite welcome and post your results if you solve this. you can do the old intake seal vacuum leak test by getting heat in the motor and spraying carb cleaner or starter fluid.....use the long red spray straw...around the front cyl. and rear cyl. seal area and see if engine changes pitch and speed but i agree with you....they were fine before the mods. with something like your issues i always revert back to "what did i change before the problem started" logic.

 

[rchuff]

Taco I have the ebr ecm took it to dealer to have tps reset and I think they did not set right or the tps reset did not take. My bike was like yours all over idle up idle down never the same so I plugged ecmspy to it did tps reset myself and bike runs great now. I payed 95 dollar and was not going to pay 95 again. That mite be your problem it just needs to be reset it mite not have taken. If you talk to dealer maybe they will reflash for you.

 

[rchuff]

bike should be warm at least the cold start enrichment should be under 100 or at 100 so it does not effect your warm starts. The bike temp should be around 200 to 240 to do tps reset.

 

[user_deleted]

if you're in southern PA bring it over and i'll reset the tps switch for you free of charge.

 

[user_deleted]

tacolover: just re-read your post and was TPS reset done with bike running? hmmmm.
below is correct reset procedure for your 2006. if not performed precisely in these steps will cause problems. i would call the dealer who performed the work you mentioned you had done, nicely explain to the service mgr. that it is worse and that in your opinion tps reset not done correctly and could you have it recheckd and reset? most all these service managers are decent guys and accomodating and should accomodate you for no charge. here are the steps and if not done in this order will cause problems.
1. engine MUST be up to sufficient normal operating temperature
2. key off...run switch(red switch on right handlebar control assembly) off, bike plugged into computer and correctly communicating with ecm program
3. key on..run switch to on.....engine OFF...blip throttle a few times to make sure bike and computer communicating with each other...view tps reading.
4. turn idle speed screw CC or out until tps reads 0. if 0 not obtained blip throttle several times until you obtain reading of 0. then back out screw additional 1-2 turns.
5. click "reset tps" tab
6. turn idle speed screw clockwise until you obtain reading of 5.1-5.5 i prefer 5.1 blip throttle several times to seat air valve and continue to look for 5.1-5.5 reading.
7. start bike and check idle speed. anything close to 1000rpm at warm idle will suffice. anything higher than 1100rpm at warm idle can cause erratic and high idle speed symptoms
hope this helps

 

[Tork]

Lunatic-

Just a quick note on step 4. If the TPS is worn or was incorrectly zeroed in a previous attempt, the throttle plate might not truly be closed completely when ECMSPY indicates "0" degrees. In this step, I always back the idle screw out until the Degrees reading stops decreasing, indicating that the throttle plate is no longer closing. However, it still may be hanging open due to friction or debris. Opening and snapping the throttle closed (blipping) at this point often makes the Degrees reading bump down an additional hair (indicating that the throttle plate was still had some travel left before closing). Back the screw out some more. If the Degrees reading no longer decreases, THEN click reset.

Until you click "reset", the Degrees reading in ECMSPY is really arbitrary, meaning that if the TPS calibration is off, "0" does not necessarily indicate complete closure of the throttle plate, and in fact can/will indicate a negative value as you back the idle screw out if the current TPS calibration is indeed off. Make sense? If you simply stop backing out the idle screw and click "reset" when the Degrees reading indicates "0" and the throttle hasn't yet completely closed, the TPS calibration will certainly be off and you could be chasing your tail (changing plugs, sensors, wires, messing with fuel additives, etc.) wondering why the bike still runs poorly.

You should also remember to make sure your throttle cables are properly adjusted, which results in a teeny tiny bit of slack in the throttle. If your cables are adjusted too tight, it could keep the throttle plate from ever completely and truly closing all the way, which would really cause major tail-chasing since no amount of CCW adjustment of the idle screw will ever completely close the throttle plate before resetting the TPS, and you'd never have a proper calibration, no matter how many times you repeat the procedure.

I seriously doubt that many (if any) HD techs take any of the above into consideration, let alone ensuring the bike is fully up to temp before resetting the TPS. No one cares about how our bikes run more than we do. That's why it's a good idea to buy a manual and some basic tools and learn to perform basic troubleshooting and maintenance yourself. You'll be more self-sufficient and confident in the care and detail put into making sure things are adjusted and tightened correctly.

 

[Tacolover]

The motorcycle was moved to the mechanic area where customers were not allowed. I brought the EBR ecm with me in the box it came in with instructions. They installed it and know they had it running in the back. After 1-hour mechanic pushed it out to the customer area and told me he wanted to do something. Returned with the laptop and plugged it in, started the bike and was waiting for it to heat up. Sounded very good, after approximately 15-minutes he said bike would not get to temperature and instructed me to adjust idle to 1050 rpm. He took it out for a test ride and said was running very well. I have no idea how/what he did in the back mechanic area. With that I loaded it back on the U-haul and brought back to Houston. Again ran very well 1st 50-miles then started running in to plug fouling issues. Changed them, ran well again then again about 40-50 miles later the idle surge began with sporadic backpopping on decel. I'm thinking still fouling front plug. I dunno...

 

[jstav]

I'm in Houston, and willing to help you out with it. Do you still have your stock ECM?

 

[Tacolover]

I live in West Houston and yes I still have the stock ECM but would rather run with the EBR race ECM. I tried dealing with the Big Houston dealership and decided not to let them touch it. Had issues with service department, parts department and general attitude. Again, arrogancy. So took it here
http://www.goeharley-davidson.com/map_hours.asp

They were very accommodating.

Regrettably I never got to ride yesterday.

 

[user_deleted]

You should also remember to make sure your throttle cables are properly adjusted, which results in a teeny tiny bit of slack in the throttle. If your cables are adjusted too tight, it could keep the throttle plate from ever completely and truly closing all the way, which would really cause major tail-chasing since no amount of CCW adjustment of the idle screw will ever completely close the throttle plate before resetting the TPS, and you'd never have a proper calibration, no matter how many times you repeat the procedure.

excellent post tork and yes, did not mention the "add a bit of slack to both throttle cables" in my post but just assumed a competent tech would know this step. then again you know what they say about assuming anything

 

[Tacolover]

Yes I looked at that, small amount of slack in the throttle cables and moving handlebars lock to lock no change in rpm's.

 

[Tacolover]

Issues continue, bike started running on 1-cylinder hot then died. Would not restart until it cooled off, limped back home keeping the revs up and made it home. Deciding whether to pull the plugs and look or just take the damn thing to a Harley shop. I dislike doing that as there are very few good mechanics and find most just change parts until they get it right. Checked the seals, they seem to be good. New 10R12X plugs...

 

[100thwindow]

I live in San Antonio and if you can't find anyone else I mighthave some time next week to help you out if you still haven't figured it out.

 

[Tacolover]

Removed front plug/new HD 10R12X only 200 miles on it. Burn looks good maybe a little hot. What bothers me is the center electrode insullator is mushroomed. I just replaced with NGK DCPR8EIX after consulting with NGK about using the 9's.

Bike restart was hard but seemed to run better as it warmed up, about a 10-mile ride the idle was a bit low/stopped and later a little high. Within 250 rpm's. Now rock steady at 1050 no surge however there is backpopping on decel.

Not real bad but enough. Also checked grounds. All look good with the exception of battery terminal was a little loose. Just used a phillips head to tighten after putting battery tender lead on. Removed connectors/cleaned (looked good) then applied dielectric grease on connections and tightened with a socket. Not overly so but tighter than with just a phillips.

Hesitant blasting around neighborhood as neighbors probably do not appreciate it and do not need a ticket/s. As my confidence of my reliability increases so will my rides further from home. Hope this takes care of it but am still concerned mushrooming of the 10R12X plug.

I did not remove rear plug...

 

[Tacolover]

Damnit, I replaced the race ecm with the old stock ecm and it works so much better. No plug fouling Guess I need to call EBR again...

 

[Tacolover]

EBR told me the "Learned Fuel" went too lean and made some changes on it and will be sending it back to me.

 

[Tacolover]

received my ecm back from EBR, took a few miles but finally set in correctly. Idle was high getting off freeway and lowered it to 1000-K. Let it sit overnight, fired it up and runs very well with no backpop in decel. Weather here in Houston is 100 degrees. Bike gets hot but no overheating I can tell. EBR was good to me...

Thanks Danny