MLV question

[ReadyXB]

Both, because if I ever decide to run E85 I would have to know when injectors are maxed out.

Live data stream shows you total fuel length in ms - what is driven to the injectors after all overrides are factored in.

Look at the fuel cell for a given load/rpm. The values are uS/58 or uS/50, depending on the firmware level.
When the change occurred I don't know (maybe DDFI-3).
As an example, if your map cell at Load:15/RPM:1150 is 66, then 66*58=3,828 us = fuel length of 3.828 ms.

"Wide open" (the way I think you're trying to define it) can be estimated by looking at the source fuel maps, finding the largest cell value, then factoring in the all the possible multipliers that could happen (engine/air temp, front cyl temp, open loop, learned fuel, battery voltage) depending on the actual operating condition.

It goes without saying that you should re-tune with dual o2 sensors after making fuel, timing, or mechanical changes.

 

[cossack84]

Live data stream shows you total fuel length in ms - what is driven to the injectors after all overrides are factored in.

Look at the fuel cell for a given load/rpm. The values are uS/58 or uS/50, depending on the firmware level.
When the change occurred I don't know (maybe DDFI-3).
As an example, if your map cell at Load:15/RPM:1150 is 66, then 66*58=3,828 us = fuel length of 3.828 ms.

"Wide open" (the way I think you're trying to define it) can be estimated by looking at the source fuel maps, finding the largest cell value, then factoring in the all the possible multipliers that could happen (engine/air temp, front cyl temp, open loop, learned fuel, battery voltage) depending on the actual operating condition.

It goes without saying that you should re-tune with dual o2 sensors after making fuel, timing, or mechanical changes.

Great, I really appreciate your explanation. I think all of those numbers are starting to make sense. If I know the time injector is staying open I can easily calculate if pulse last longer then the time between two intake strokes. I just needed to know what the PW was measured in.

Guys I think there is a bit of confusion. I have no current plans to make any kind of changes to this bike. My only purpose for posting questions is to get solid understanding of how ecm functions and be comfortable looking at the data. Understanding what each table represents and implications of changing things.
I really do appreciate everyone's input.

Still if someone has a bone stock map for 04 in .bin format that would be great. I can't get the ecmspy to work in order to view .txt files.

 

[cossack84]

Did quick bit of math and looks like based on my log, injector duty cyle at almost max flow is about 68%.
PW1=13.732
RPM = 5898
Load = 255
time between intake strokes 20.35 mili Seconds
So if I did my math right thats about 68% duty cycle at that moment.

 

[cossack84]

Dude:

Those old dawgs are right^^^^:eagerness:, Dwell is exactly the same meaning regarding points and injectors. Time open.
"Duty Cycle" is used to describe the same thing but as {time open vs. time closed}. Usually used as "maximum duty cycle" which would be the recommended maximum open time. 100% Maximum duty cycle would be ok to leave energized (open) 100% of the time. Injectors don't like that, heat up, and don't meter well at high dwell/ high duty cycle.

Simple math:
Gasoline is stoic at 14.7:1
E85 is 10:1
http://injector-rehab.com/shop/e85_injector_size.html

So either...
Multiply your injector duty cycle by 1.47 and see if it's within it's happy range (it's not*)
Or if you could multiply the stock injector size by 1.47 and you could (in theory) use the same map.

*255 represents the maximum on a Buell fuel map. Either 100% open OR the max duty cycle they want to run doesn't matter. It's the max input you can put. Look at the map and see how much of it is already maxed out. There is no room to just add almost 150% of the E85 needed to run well.

Heres a question... Why E85? It has less power (BSFC, BTU's whatever you like). Sure it has high octane but who cares? Unless you run super high compression, super advanced timing, or forced induction, you'll se no benefit from it besides buying a whole lot more of it. If you are building a forced induction, high compression, Buell motor, um... buy the damn injectors! I wanna see it!:angel:

Its not the fact that I'm trying to run E85 with stock injectors just that I'm trying to understand how the ecm is set up. How computer controls the fuel, I need to be able to understand it 100%, hence the reason for all of my questions.
On a separate note, I think high compression, big displacement, alcohol burning bike would be fun. E85 should let me run lots of timing with high compression for nice crisp throttle response that turbo can't provide. No added weight/bulk that comes with turbo either. Also higher compression should regain some of the fuel mileage loss due to lower BTUs of E85.

 

[Cooter]

Forgot to add:

I believe PW stands for Pulse Width. Same as duty cycle but in mS instead of %.

 

[Cooter]

E85 will give equal power when using 147% more volume than gasoline and what you are getting with all that additional volume is vastly less range, expensive fuel system upgrades, and higher octane.

E85 should let me run lots of timing with high compression for nice crisp throttle response that turbo can't provide.

In tenths of percentages, maybe. But you're adding 147% more fuel already so....

No added weight/bulk that comes with turbo either. Also higher compression should regain some of the fuel mileage loss due to lower BTUs of E85.

Unless you're dealing with an engine specifically built for E-100 Ethanol (and then why not the real stuff, Methanol), the benefits afforded by higher octane like timing advance and higher compression will never be as good as even a mild turbo. I'm not even the biggest turbo fan (Puuuunnn!) but the power increase at even low boost will overcome the 'weight' of itself... 5-10psi of boost vs. 5-10lbs? All day.

This is why you don't see fleets of new econo-E100 cars, but every other new car has a turbo.

 

[cossack84]

E85 will give equal power when using 147% more volume than gasoline and what you are getting with all that additional volume is vastly less range, expensive fuel system upgrades, and higher octane.

In tenths of percentages, maybe. But you're adding 147% more fuel already so....



Unless you're dealing with an engine specifically built for E-100 Ethanol (and then why not the real stuff, Methanol), the benefits afforded by higher octane like timing advance and higher compression will never be as good as even a mild turbo. I'm not even the biggest turbo fan (Puuuunnn!) but the power increase at even low boost will overcome the 'weight' of itself... 5-10psi of boost vs. 5-10lbs? All day.

This is why you don't see fleets of new econo-E100 cars, but every other new car has a turbo.

I think its more like ~30% difference not 147% in volume to make up for lower energy density.

In tenths of percentages, maybe. But you're adding 147% more fuel already so....

I don't think that is correct either. E85 has much greater cooling effect on incoming charge to allow for higher compression ratio plus added timing too. That's besides the higher octane rating.

On the engine that stays under load most of the time, turbo is an excellent solution. Drag bikes are able to take full advantage of the turbo set up. How ever for the kind of riding I'm doing, sharp, crisp and immediate throttle response is way more important then overall power output that turbo provides.

Cooter sounds like I struck a nerve with E85, was not my intention. I get the cars are going toward the turbo set up, but that's completely different purpose and use of the engine.

 

[Cooter]

No worries cossack84 I have no nerves to strike:eagerness: I certainly hope you don't think my posts are personal or degrading, I'm just trying to answer your questions with facts as I know them:eagerness: Sure, I'm just another internet know-it-all-jackhole, but I won't post numbers I haven't researched or know to be true in my experience. I can be wrong and I invite anyone to please correct me, it's a learning experience for all of us, everyday. Everyone wins

It sounds like you just discovered E85 and are dazzled with the differences from good ol' gasoline. I have no preference for either in the right application and like I said before, an engine specifically built for alcohol type fuel can do well.

BUT: Your Buell engine was designed for gasoline. It will make more power on the more powerful gasoline than E85. You'll need much, much, more than advancing the timing to change that.

You'd need to be getting 70.5mpg on E85 to just equal my STT's average of 47mpg on gasoline. Higher compression and timing won't get you an almost 50% increase in mpg. And a much bigger tank than the stock 3.5 gallon frame for the range.

Fact: In a perfect world and no other changes E85 needs 147% more volume to have the same BTU's as gasoline. Thats 47% more fuel volume. Not 46%. Even if 'only 30%' more E85 would do it.. the answer to the question you asked: 'can I use stock injectors with a map change' is still "No".

You are right, Ethanol does have a slight cooling affect, it IS alcohol ya know. But don't go blocking the cooling fins of your air cooled engine just yet! lol.

I still don't know what you are looking to do. If you want your bike to rev faster for some reason, I suggest the right tool for the job. Engine work, like lightning (another puuunnnn!) the rotating assembly can help your drag bike aspirations. So can buying an EBR 1190:angel:

 

[cossack84]

Cooter I'm glad neither one has personal feeling involved, I'm in the same boat, here to learn!

You are correct bike was designed to run on 91 octane not E85. How ever if I was to do any kind of motor work to it, I would seriously consider a possibility to raising compression to accommodate full time use of E85.

Cooter what I'm looking to do is get very familiar with my bike and how it works. To me it means understanding every bit and every function, hence this post. I'm asking questions about things that I dont understand in a place that should have answers. It took three pages worth of posts for ReadyXB to shine a light on how PW is measured. Now I have a solid understanding of that part of my bike. Going forward when I'm ready to log wide band O2 I can reasonably accurately start figuring out how much fuel is being burned and when.
Again, the only reason for my post is to gain knowledge.

 

[Silverrider]

Cooter is not here to learn , He is here to share his experiences and knowledge with us, as John and many others. :applause:

 

[Cooter]

I beg to differ SR. I learn a lot everyday because I'm not afraid of being wrong




I never learned anything by being right:angel:

 

[Silverrider]

Cooter Beg all you want , I have never seen you asking for help, only answering and showing, with the upmost respect for all. :angel:

 

[Cooter]

OP, I'm glad ReadyXB was able to answer your question in the specific way you wanted. I didn't realize that until post #25.

I didn't realize it because it's completely unnecessary to use that knowledge unless you are physically calculating each data point from your datalog:hororr: But you are in luck! The process of tuning has been greatly automated so breaking out the slide rule won't be necessary

VE analyze in MLV does that for you by using a pretty straightforward algorithm to compute current fuel load mapping against O2 sensor output to get the engines output to whatever your target is. Stoic for CL and 13:1 (starting point) for OL is typical with gasoline.

Knowing stoic for E85 is already 10:1 I'd guess your OL target at 7:1. An easy Google search should answer that for you when you get to that point.

I guessed right!
Air/Fuel (A/F) Ratios of Common Fuels

Fuel A/F Lambda (λ)
Pure Gasoline Stoichiometric 14.7 1.000
Pure Gasoline Max Power Rich 12.5 0.8503
Pure Gasoline Max Power Lean 13.23 0.900
E10 Stoichiometric 14.08 1.000
E10 Max Power Rich 12.0 0.8523
E10 Max Power Lean 12.7008 0.9020
E15 Stoichiometric 13.79 1.000
E15 Max Power Rich 11.75 0.8521
E15 Max Power Lean 12.4362 0.9018
E85 Stoichiometric 9.765 1.000
E85 Max Power Rich 6.975 0.7143
E85 Max Power Lean 8.469 0.8673
Ethanol Stoichiometric 9.0078 1.000
Ethanol Max Power Rich 6.429 0.7137
Ethanol Max Power Lean 7.8 0.8659
Methanol Stoichiometric 6.45 1.000
Methanol Max Power Rich 4.0 0.620
Propane Stoichiometric 15.7 1.000
Propane Max Power Rich 13.18 0.8395

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/wideband-oxygen-sensor/

SR: I learned all I know from T-BAG:adoration: hahahaha

 

[cossack84]

OP, I'm glad ReadyXB was able to answer your question in the specific way you wanted. I didn't realize that until post #25.

I didn't realize it because it's completely unnecessary to use that knowledge unless you are physically calculating each data point from your datalog:hororr: But you are in luck! The process of tuning has been greatly automated so breaking out the slide rule won't be necessary

VE analyze in MLV does that for you by using a pretty straightforward algorithm to compute current fuel load mapping against O2 sensor output to get the engines output to whatever your target is. Stoic for CL and 13:1 (starting point) for OL is typical with gasoline.

Knowing stoic for E85 is already 10:1 I'd guess your OL target at 7:1. An easy Google search should answer that for you when you get to that point.

I guessed right!
Air/Fuel (A/F) Ratios of Common Fuels

Fuel A/F Lambda (λ)
Pure Gasoline Stoichiometric 14.7 1.000
Pure Gasoline Max Power Rich 12.5 0.8503
Pure Gasoline Max Power Lean 13.23 0.900
E10 Stoichiometric 14.08 1.000
E10 Max Power Rich 12.0 0.8523
E10 Max Power Lean 12.7008 0.9020
E15 Stoichiometric 13.79 1.000
E15 Max Power Rich 11.75 0.8521
E15 Max Power Lean 12.4362 0.9018
E85 Stoichiometric 9.765 1.000
E85 Max Power Rich 6.975 0.7143
E85 Max Power Lean 8.469 0.8673
Ethanol Stoichiometric 9.0078 1.000
Ethanol Max Power Rich 6.429 0.7137
Ethanol Max Power Lean 7.8 0.8659
Methanol Stoichiometric 6.45 1.000
Methanol Max Power Rich 4.0 0.620
Propane Stoichiometric 15.7 1.000
Propane Max Power Rich 13.18 0.8395

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/wideband-oxygen-sensor/

SR: I learned all I know from T-BAG:adoration: hahahaha

I thought it was pretty straight forward question, what PW is measured in? "milliseconds", answered my original question, thank you again, ReadyXB.

It might not be that important at the moment, when all the components are stock. However if one was to change injector size or increase fuel pressure, knowing how fuel is delivered by ecm is pretty important. One way to monitor it, is by watching PW in data log.
Again if I ever decide to change things this information is needed. I don't understand how you can begin to calculate what the initial change to the map should be once hardware has been changed with out know how long the injector is staying open.

Thanks for the AFR table, I'm no where near to even considering a switch to a different fuel. Just here to gather information. I'm completely fine not talking about E85 in this thread lol. Seems like it got us off topic.
But I would not mind a discussion about potential benefit of running E85 in modified buell, perhaps in a new thread.

 

[user_deleted]

Stoich Lambda parameters irrelevant jibberish unless data-logging in 24hz gig binary platform.
Children at play with minimal knowledge who should relegate themselves to serving Santa milk and cookies.

ich

 

[cossack84]

Stoich Lambda parameters irrelevant jibberish unless data-logging in 24hz gig binary platform.
Children at play with minimal knowledge who should relegate themselves to serving Santa milk and cookies.

ich

......................................................


Edit: Well....got me hook line and sinker!

 

[wickedchop]

^^^^^^ Its an effing joke man. Basically what John is saying is that these are century plus year old motors. They are not current moto gp machines. Basically he (John) and myself amongst countless others see no need to bother with these bikes. There isn't 85 HP hiding in the ecm, there is no need to tig weld 900 extra o2 bungs on the header! Do what ya wanna do man its your bike. I would rather ride mine and accept it for what it is......an air cooled sledge hammer! I don't even bother with my race bikes ecm.

 

[Silverrider]

Stoich Lambda parameters irrelevant jibberish unless data-logging in 24hz gig binary platform.
Children at play with minimal knowledge who should relegate themselves to serving Santa milk and cookies.

ich

Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ At its highest effective level.

 

[cossack84]

Sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ At its highest effective level.

Yep got my dumb ass.

 

[cossack84]

^^^^^^ Its an effing joke man. Basically what John is saying is that these are century plus year old motors. They are not current moto gp machines. Basically he (John) and myself amongst countless others see no need to bother with these bikes. There isn't 85 HP hiding in the ecm, there is no need to tig weld 900 extra o2 bungs on the header! Do what ya wanna do man its your bike. I would rather ride mine and accept it for what it is......an air cooled sledge hammer! I don't even bother with my race bikes ecm.

Yep completely went over my dumb head!

I'm not trying to get more power out of this old outdated bike. I'm simply trying to get more familiar with it. This thing is 15 years old and runs on crap that I don't understand. In order for me to keep this bike running in good enough shape I have to be able to troubleshoot it effectively. Again I'm not trying to or have any plans to modify this old bike. I'm trying to understand how this old crap works.