What the HELL are these sounds? 1 video + 1 more to come...

[xmjm924x]

Hi all. I’m a new rider, new Buell owner, and new to the forum (1st post). I bought an 07' Buell XB12 SCG with 5k miles around 2 months ago (first bike), and now it's giving me issues. It randomly idles at 2k rpm when I downshift into 1st and come to a stop. The only way to stop the high-idle, is to let out the clutch until it's barely engaged and then the rpm will settle around 1k. Using this forum, we (the old man and I) found out how to adjust the TPS screw and use the Buelltooth dongle to adjust the RPMs at idle. So we were out last night messing around with the Buelltooth dongle and EcmDroid when all-of-a-sudden, everything kinda went to ****. Let me explain. Around a week or 2 ago, my dad noticed a worrying sound coming from the engine but we just kinda dismissed it for the time-being. Well last night as we were out there messing with the TPS, the "weird sound" grew more noticeable...and was accompanied by OTHER worrying sounds and the bike feeling sorta "crippled" when I test-rode it. Also, the header pipe is glowing orange after only a few minutes of idling. But here's a little 5min video of us with the bike last night...can somebody shed some light on the sounds coming from this engine? The old man is extremely worried about it, as am I. I don't have anywhere NEAR as much knowledge & experience with all-things-motorized, so him being this concerned, is making me concerned. I refuse to ride the bike until this issues is taken care of, and this is OUR ONLY vehicle right now as all our other cars are broken down.

https://youtu.be/OMfn8Z_YhRE

Also, the bike has a Jardine exhaust...which may or may not be causing all kinds of complications I think. I have a million questions and concerns about this bike, but I'll just stick with one thing at a time and RIGHT NOW, THESE SOUNDS are the main thing worrying me. I'm going to go out and start it up and test-ride it so I can record another video while I'm riding the bike and then y'all can hear the OTHER new & concerning sounds that just popped up last night. One of the sounds happens in 1st or 2nd gear when I'm accelerating and it sounds like a nickel rattling around inside a tin can or something...it's VERY distinct. Yet another noise kinda resembles a HISSING or the sound of a bunch of newspaper having been lodged into my back wheel and the paper is dragging...but it sounds to be coming from the front of the bike. I was extremely tired when I recorded this video as you might be able to tell from my poor lack-of-description concerning the sounds.

When the old man becomes available, I'm going to have him help me write a more coherent and accurate description of what may or may not be going on with the bike. As mentioned, I am not well-versed in mechanical type stuff so he should have some better descriptive theories as to what might be occurring with this bike.

 

[njloco]

What have you checked so far, fluid levels, exhaust valve servo and cable, does the fan come on when it gets really warmed up, did you make sure nothing is rattling around ?

 

[Barrett]

Sir: The comment option on your tube vid should be active to receive potential help. Strange that it's turned off.
As per your narrative and the audio portion of your vid....you have several glaring deficiencies as follows:

1-Both start-up and warm curb-idle speed on all 2007 XB's is controlled by:
The TPS base-line being set at between 5.1 and 5.7 numerical value---and performed correctly with ZERO margin for error
Following correct TPS setting adjustment and locked in place...you then adjust warm curb-idle speed to 1000RPM via the thumb-wheel adjustment screw. The clutch safety switch and neutral safety switch also control idle speed when trans engaged in any gear. Check both switches for failure.

2-A glowing red header at idle is the result of: vacuum leak at TB assembly mounting points fore and aft....faulty ECM mapping allowing high lean fuel conditions at or near idle....low oil level....disconnected oil cooler....faulty cooling fan and companion ECM programming for same.....failing fuel pump

3-Noisy valve train. Causes can be repeated trips to the rev-limiter...adverse heat cycling...incorrect oil viscosity...incorrect oil level in swingarm tank....excess valve-train wear

4-Exceedingly noisy primary drive assembly. You need to check the following:
Excess slack in the primary drive chain
Faulty primary chain tensioning shoe
Incorrect brand quantity viscosity of primary/trans lube being used
Primary drive lube level wildly incorrect
Loose clutch hub-to-trans input shaft assembly and nut. Left hand threads

Lacking the abilities to address the above probable faults...seek out a local Harley Davidson Sportster tech to assist. Similarities are many.

Good luck

 

[xmjm924x]

Sir: The comment option on your tube vid should be active to receive potential help. Strange that it's turned off.
As per your narrative and the audio portion of your vid....you have several glaring deficiencies as follows:

1-Both start-up and warm curb-idle speed on all 2007 XB's is controlled by:
The TPS base-line being set at between 5.1 and 5.7 numerical value---and performed correctly with ZERO margin for error
Following correct TPS setting adjustment and locked in place...you then adjust warm curb-idle speed to 1000RPM via the thumb-wheel adjustment screw. The clutch safety switch and neutral safety switch also control idle speed when trans engaged in any gear. Check both switches for failure.

2-A glowing red header at idle is the result of: vacuum leak at TB assembly mounting points fore and aft....faulty ECM mapping allowing high lean fuel conditions at or near idle....low oil level....disconnected oil cooler....faulty cooling fan and companion ECM programming for same.....failing fuel pump

3-Noisy valve train. Causes can be repeated trips to the rev-limiter...adverse heat cycling...incorrect oil viscosity...incorrect oil level in swingarm tank....excess valve-train wear

4-Exceedingly noisy primary drive assembly. You need to check the following:
Excess slack in the primary drive chain
Faulty primary chain tensioning shoe
Incorrect brand quantity viscosity of primary/trans lube being used
Primary drive lube level wildly incorrect
Loose clutch hub-to-trans input shaft assembly and nut. Left hand threads

Lacking the abilities to address the above probable faults...seek out a local Harley Davidson Sportster tech to assist. Similarities are many.

Good luck

Uh Sir, I am HUMBLY apologetic for having accidentally turned off the comments on my video...I have never uploaded a video to YouTube before so I was unaware that my video was set for "children audiences", thus automatically disabling the comments feature. Also, I was assuming that any comments related to my video, would be posted HERE as opposed to the comment section of YouTube. But lesson learned.

As for my glaring deficiencies (hey I kinda like that for a heavy metal band name..."Ladies and Gentleman, please welcome The Glaring Deficiencies!"), well I don't even know where to begin with addressing those. It seems there is around 3-5 possible causes for each of the concerning issues...none of which I'm qualified or equipped to address. Unfortunately, my local Harley dealership is pretty much the king of suck-ass dealerships. I've been there on one occasion to grab some engine oil, and man did I ever get bad vibes there. Nobody even wanted to help me when they realized I wasn't there to fork out a bag of money for a showroom bike or to get some fancy work done.

I've checked the oil numerous times since I bought the bike, but I've only had to add oil ONCE when it was near the bottom of the cross-hatches (and I used SAE 20W-50 from the Harley dealership). Other than that one time, it has always remained in the middle of the cross-hatches when I've checked it standing straight-up on level-ground, off the kick stand and after warming up the bike with a short ride. We just changed the primary oil with Mobile1 V-Twin 20-50 and everything went exactly as planned. That was 7-10 days ago.

Thanks for all the info Barrett. I will use the information you've posted here as a reference to show the mechanic when I take it to be worked on.

I'll post more info in a bit. Test-ride video to come in a bit...

 

[Cooter]

Dang hard to tell the sound. Such is the case of a cell phone mic and a V-Twin with aftermarket exhaust I had it cranked up, I swear my neighbors think I'm running a Buell in my living room now!

You can use a long screwdriver with a wood handle to pin point the area the new noise is coming from, by putting the handle in your ear and touching things with the pointy end. If it's coming from the primary, pop the 2-bolt inspection cover off and make sure that chain has about 3/8"-1/2" slack on it. It is OK to be loose, NOT ok to be tight.

Is the hissing noise from the front wheel? I'd think you couldn't hear it with the Jardine exhaust but brake pads make that noise sometimes. If you don't have paddock stands... on the kickstand, you can pull the bars rearward towards the kickstand side to balance it and it will lift the front wheel slightly. Then have someone spin the front. Is that the noise? Dragging brakes?

You're supposed to check the oil level with the bike on the side stand, NOT upright like a metric bike. Ride it, stop, wait 2 mins, and check it. Anywhere in the checked area is fine, no need to touch the top mark or add any unless its outside that checked area.

Use your ECMDroid to check AFV. Should be +/-10 from 100. It's a clue to what the ECM is compensating for, if anything?

Dull red header glowing is normal for the extended high idle in the vid. You'll only notice it at night, no worries.

The hissing noise may be whatever? but the 'nickel in a tin can' is a very worrisome noise to me:upset: Is it louder when it's cold or revved up?

 

[34nineteen]

i'm running a buell in my living room now!

what the hell is wrong with that?

 

[xmjm924x]

Dang hard to tell the sound. Such is the case of a cell phone mic and a V-Twin with aftermarket exhaust I had it cranked up, I swear my neighbors think I'm running a Buell in my living room now!

You can use a long screwdriver with a wood handle to pin point the area the new noise is coming from, by putting the handle in your ear and touching things with the pointy end. If it's coming from the primary, pop the 2-bolt inspection cover off and make sure that chain has about 3/8"-1/2" slack on it. It is OK to be loose, NOT ok to be tight.

Is the hissing noise from the front wheel? I'd think you couldn't hear it with the Jardine exhaust but brake pads make that noise sometimes. If you don't have paddock stands... on the kickstand, you can pull the bars rearward towards the kickstand side to balance it and it will lift the front wheel slightly. Then have someone spin the front. Is that the noise? Dragging brakes?

You're supposed to check the oil level with the bike on the side stand, NOT upright like a metric bike. Ride it, stop, wait 2 mins, and check it. Anywhere in the checked area is fine, no need to touch the top mark or add any unless its outside that checked area.

Use your ECMDroid to check AFV. Should be +/-10 from 100. It's a clue to what the ECM is compensating for, if anything?

Dull red header glowing is normal for the extended high idle in the vid. You'll only notice it at night, no worries.

The hissing noise may be whatever? but the 'nickel in a tin can' is a very worrisome noise to me:upset: Is it louder when it's cold or revved up?

Thanks cooter! I very much appreciate all the info you've supplied. Same goes for the rest of y'all.

1. I test-rode the bike, but never took any video. Much to my delight, 2/3 of the strange noises were gone. The only one that remained was the "clacking" sound coming from the engine (NOT the nickel in tin can noise or the "hissing" noise). We popped off the primary inspection cover to check the chain, and sure enough, it had around 1.5" of slack in it. When I push it upwards with my finger, it almost extends to the top of the case, it's THAT loose. I think it's safe to assume that the loose chain is most likely responsible for that clacking sound, no? I mean with 1.5" of play, I'd think it's just slapping around all over the place in there. You say its better to have it loose than tight, but i imagine that statement only goes so far right? The funny thing is, when I test rode it (I test rode is AFTER we inspected the chain) it seemed to run fine...much better than the night before when i filmed the video.

2. I always used to check it on the side stand, but every time I did so, it would always show the oil level as being HIGHER than if I checked it completely upright...so I assumed upright was the correct way. I've heard contradicting opinions on this matter but I'll take your word for it. How bad is it to overfill? Im referring to a "slight" overfill...like just past the cross-hatches when checked on the sidestand after a short run. Cuz the first time I added oil right after I bought the bike, I ended up overfilling it slightly (when checked on sidestand) and I was very worried about it until I got on the net and researched it and people were saying it wasnt that big of a deal unless I WAAAY overfilled it.

3. I'm going to have to investigate your idea about the hissing sound from 2 nights ago being due to dragging breaks...my dad was thinking the same thing. Even know the hissing sound was gone yesterday, I'll try and see if I can do that front wheel trick you're talking about to spin the front wheel and see what I can hear.

4. I'll use my ECMDroid to check AFV and make sure it's +/-10 from 100...thanks.

5. The nickel in the tin can sound was non-existent yesterday and I hope to God it stays that way for the rest of my ownership...cuz that was a pretty worrying sound...although it sounded VERY near to the front of the bike or even the handle bars though so I don't think it was coming from the engine TBH.

We drained the primary oil yesterday in preparation for removal of the primary cover and tightening of the chain so obviously the bike is unrideable at the moment but I will definitely post more info later...

 

[xmjm924x]

BTW, I was perusing the forum and happened to click on a recent thread started by "ThaRickestRick" (and I agree with you Cooter, that is an excellent handle...I think I'll cancel my account and start over as the "TheMikestMike" lol), which ended up having some good info and answering some of the questions I've posted here as well as questions I've had but not yet posted.

So based on what you said in Rick's thread, I guess 3/8" is about the proper amount of slack huh? Cuz in that case, my chain is looser than a Dublin whore. I'll have to show the old man the info u posted on the other thread and see if he wants to use that method to tighten the chain.

So much good info on this site. So much info, so little brain. But I'll soak up what I can.

 

[njloco]

Don't forget to check the tension and adjust at the tightest point when rotating the primary chain.

 

[34nineteen]

Did you pull off the primary cover itself and inspect the case for a damaged/worn out tensioner?

The hissing is probably a leak in the intake seals, which would explain the high idle that takes a while to settle down. Which also explains the header pipe glowing red (lean).

Make sure to read the factory book about checking the oil level. Most places don't do it right, and most of the Buells I pick up almost always have too much oil in them (from people not checking the level correctly).

Is it a problem to overfill? It can be.

In the case, too much oil can cause the crank to splash through it causing bubbles to form in the oil. Too many bubbles in the oil can cause oil starvation as there can be more air than oil being delivered to the bearings. Normally, I like Bubbles :love_heart: , but this is different.

In the primary, too much oil can cause the same problem, but mostly it just causes difficult shifting, and the old adage of "A quart out, a quart in" doesnt really hold true with an XB. They tend to hold a little less than a quart (28-30 oz in my experience). A full quart will often lead to the overfilling.

 

[Cooter]

1) THAT much slack (1.5"?!) in the primary chain would suggest a missing tensioner foot or something dramatically bad. When you changed the primary oil, did you guys just drain out from the 17mm plug, and replace the oil to the bottom of the 3 bolt clutch cover (on the side stand too!)? The 17mm drain plug is to the REAR of the adjustment, the long stud and the big-ass nut is the primary chain adjustment. If you fiddled with it, mistaking it for the drain plug, you'll need to re-adjust it, and it would totally explain the noise.
1A) Loosen the big lock nut and hold it in place while you tighten the stud with an allen wrench to get the 3/8"-1/2" slack in the 2-bolt inspection window. Better instructions are here:http://buellmods.com

2) Check you oil warm, after riding, on the side stand. Otherwise it will be too full. Not a crazy bad thing for a dry sump engine like this. The crankcase shouldn't overfill and foam up the oil, but it can overflow the reservoir (your swingarm) and dump oil on your back tire. Doesn't sound like a good day to me:upset:

3)Even if the brakes aren't dragging, they can make noise. But dang if I could hear it over the bike.

4) it's just a clue, if it's way off, try re-setting to 100 and see what that does. Check for codes too but don't clear them. It will never make it run differently. You'll have one or 2 because of the muffler so don't panic there either.

5) Does it nickel in a tim can when you hit bumps or when you hit the front brakes? Could be a loose/worn steering neck bearing. Guess where the tightening procedure is:
http://buellmods.com
:eagerness:

 

[xmjm924x]

1) THAT much slack (1.5"?!) in the primary chain would suggest a missing tensioner foot or something dramatically bad. When you changed the primary oil, did you guys just drain out from the 17mm plug, and replace the oil to the bottom of the 3 bolt clutch cover (on the side stand too!)? The 17mm drain plug is to the REAR of the adjustment, the long stud and the big-ass nut is the primary chain adjustment. If you fiddled with it, mistaking it for the drain plug, you'll need to re-adjust it, and it would totally explain the noise.
1A) Loosen the big lock nut and hold it in place while you tighten the stud with an allen wrench to get the 3/8"-1/2" slack in the 2-bolt inspection window. Better instructions are here:http://buellmods.com

2) Check you oil warm, after riding, on the side stand. Otherwise it will be too full. Not a crazy bad thing for a dry sump engine like this. The crankcase shouldn't overfill and foam up the oil, but it can overflow the reservoir (your swingarm) and dump oil on your back tire. Doesn't sound like a good day to me:upset:

3)Even if the brakes aren't dragging, they can make noise. But dang if I could hear it over the bike.

4) it's just a clue, if it's way off, try re-setting to 100 and see what that does. Check for codes too but don't clear them. It will never make it run differently. You'll have one or 2 because of the muffler so don't panic there either.

5) Does it nickel in a tim can when you hit bumps or when you hit the front brakes? Could be a loose/worn steering neck bearing. Guess where the tightening procedure is:
http://buellmods.com
:eagerness:

We were able to differentiate between the 17mm drain plug and the primary chain adjustment nut right off the bat, so to answer your question, no we did not fiddle with adjustment nut by accident and so that was definitely not the source of the sound.

I contracted a touch of the Irish Flu today and then we got hit by a swarm of bees, so we got approximately zero work done on the bike. Gonna set up my canopy and hit it hard tomorrow to finish this thing up. Will re-read all ya'lls advice here prior to adjusting the chain tension and will let you know if i have any more questions.

On the morrow.

 

[Cooter]

Good to hear, but let me re-iterate, THAT much slack calls for further inspection. I'd plan on pulling the primary cover:eagerness:

 

[ThaRickestRick]

BTW, I was perusing the forum and happened to click on a recent thread started by "ThaRickestRick" (and I agree with you Cooter, that is an excellent handle...I think I'll cancel my account and start over as the "TheMikestMike" lol), which ended up having some good info and answering some of the questions I've posted here as well as questions I've had but not yet posted.

So based on what you said in Rick's thread, I guess 3/8" is about the proper amount of slack huh? Cuz in that case, my chain is looser than a Dublin whore. I'll have to show the old man the info u posted on the other thread and see if he wants to use that method to tighten the chain.

So much good info on this site. So much info, so little brain. But I'll soak up what I can.

Steal my handle and then we're obligated to fight to the death...there can be ONLY OOOONNNNNEEE! I agree with most of the above...primary chain drive but as someone mentioned...you may want to check the condition of the adjuster shoe with it being so loose but given that the bike only has 5k on it you are probably good. Definitely recommend reading through the manual when you have spare time (or if you're like me, when you should be working)... I posted the link Cooter gave me origianlly below. As far as it not settling back to idle its probably intake seals as mine was exhibiting much of the same issues. I bought the oberon manifold flanges with a ring seal instead of the bevelled seal that is OEM... makes it almost impossible to reinstall incorrectly and is honesly one of the most underrated upgrades in my opinion. Arrived in about a week. Link for that below as well BUT MAKE SURE TO DOUBLE CHECK THE FIT BECAUSE IT DOESNT SHOW UNDER THE SCG MODEL ONLY THE S. I dont know the differences in the SCG manifold that would lead to it being incompatible but I'm sure Cooter or 34nineteen can address that for you as they've been pretty helpful in answering my questions thus far. Welcome BTW. Good Luck amigo.

manual found here- http://buellmods.com/

https://www.oberon-performance.co.uk/buell-inlet-flange/buell-inlet-flange-kit

 

[Cooter]

I'm a PICKLE!!!!!!!!!

 

[ThaRickestRick]

I'm a PICKLE!!!!!!!!!

Best one ever... PIIIICCCKKKLLLEEEEE RIIIIIIIICK!

 

[xmjm924x]

My bad ya'll, busy couple days...Just wanted to post a quick update here so ya'll didn't think I just abandoned the thread after I fixed the problem but I'll probably supply more info tomorrow...

Rather than remove the primary cover, we stuck an endoscope down the clutch inspection cover to check the shoe. It appeared to be completely intact and undamaged. We removed the primary drain bolt and drained the oil. Then we tightened the chain using the instructions given here, and we followed them to a T. The extra 1" of slack in the chain was now removed as we had around 0.5" of slack in the newly adjusted chain. After tightening up the tensioner nut, we filled up the primary to the appropriate level with 1qt of Amsoil 20W-50. Then we did an oil change on the engine. We drained ALL the oil by removing both the main drain bolt AND the hex-head drain bolt on the other side of the bike (thanks to a youtube vid on how to do this). Luckily for us, it was much easier to drain the remaining oil using that 2nd bolt because my Jardine exhaust doesn't need to be removed in the same way the stock exhaust would need to be for the same task. After draining, we did a proper oil change using the Amsoil and installed the new oil filter. We also adjusted the clutch cable and the shifter knob. I'm tired atm but to the best of my knowledge that sounds about accurate.

The difference between how the bike ran before, and how it runs now, is almost night and day. It's like the difference between midnight and twilight, which is to say, it ran pretty decent before, and now it seems to run basically flawless. The difference is dramatic.

At this point in time there are ZERO weird sounds, ZERO random REV-fluctuations at idle, (almost) ZERO coughs or delays while starting. That original CLACKING sound we were most concerned with (best heard on a phone speaker) is completely gone, as is the hissing/dragging sound that occurred on the first night, as is that intermittent "nickel in the can" sound that appeared on the first few test-runs. The bike doesn't seem to overheat as badly as it did. It shifts A LOT smoother in BOTH directions. It rolls backwards WAY easier than it did. It accelerates more smoothly and somehow even seems to brake more efficiently (as if that were even possible). The check-engine light IS still illuminated, but I think that might be due to the Jardine exhaust. Needless to say, I'm ELATED with the results of this fix. I loved the way this bike rode when I first bought it, and now it is THAT MUCH better...it's just sublime man. Finally, one thing has gone right.

I don't know what the cause of the lose chain was, but I'll elaborate on that tomorrow.

 

[Cooter]

Thats all great news, sounds like you got it closer to dailed in
If you don't have digital access to the ECM via ECMDroid or such you can jump the terminals in the diagnostic plug under the seat and count flashes Old Skool style to see what codes are there. Instructions are in the service manual.

But so far huge advancements! Glad to hear it.

 

[xmjm924x]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We drained ALL the oil by removing both the main drain bolt AND the hex-head drain bolt on the other side of the bike

Strongly advise against ever doing that again. The hex-head plug you're referring to is NOT a "drain bolt". More youtube BS.


The check-engine light IS still illuminated, but I think that might be due to the Jardine exhaust

In all likelihood, due to FC's 16 & 21. Needs to be remedied. Access ECM....clear actives and historicals...check box for "disable IEV system".

If it's not a drain plug, then what is it? What's it's purpose? And why would I want around 8oz of old oil still circulating in my engine combining with the new oil? The guy who's video I watched on YT, seemed to be a pretty hardcore Buell enthusiast like ya'll are, so I would kinda think he knew what he was saying...but idk maybe not. It was 2 brothers who had a bunch of Buells in their garage, and around half of them appeared to have the cases split. It only make sense to wanna have PURE, CLEAN oil circulating thru the engine, no?

In the other matter, DTC 21 keeps coming back every time I delete it and it stays in the history, but I think I just found a thread on here that addresses this issue...https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showt...le-code-21-ACM-stuck-open-ACM-short-to-ground

Lastly, I could here that "hissing sound" again last night when i took it for a short ride, the only difference with this ride, was that I wasn't wearing a helmet (same as original test-rides night of video). So I guess I just cant hear it with a helmet. Guess I might have some dragging brakes after all. Gonna have to check that.

Hopefully the little fluorescent green praying mantis that jumped off my bike when i took the cover off this morning, isn't a bad omen.

 

[xmjm924x]

And I do have ECMDroid, just not ECMSpy as I dont have a windows laptop to use...but thanks for the info Cooter.