Burned a valve....

[Chicknstripn]

I would follow gbalias, guy knows a thing about Buells and tuning!
I briefly reread this post and one thing I'm wondering is if you've gone though all the wiring to make sure there is nothing shorting out.
It almost sounds to me like the front cylinder spark plug wire has a short in it.
Also the back firing through the intake could be a symptom of leaking intake seals.
You said you performed a TPS sweep. Does that mean you reset the TPS via the service manual? I think a malfunctioning TPS or improperly set TPS would also cause the intake backfiring.
Start a check list of all the simple things that could be wrong and start checking off all those that pass inspection/testing.
Keep us posted on your progress. You'll be helping someone else out down the road.
Good luck

 

[gbalias]

:up: ignition is the 2nd place id look after the fueling/injector.

the AFR would be rich if it wasnt igniting in there though..... but it would still probably show a large temp differential.

 

[cjmech]

in regards to tuning ignition maps......was this done on a steady state dyno with throttle position & rpm feedback to dyno pc?

Yes.

Please dont think that I am unappreciative in any way, I apologize if that's how I cam across. After all I am here looking for outside input.

In looking at the values of the factory race map (which has a lot of maxed cell ranges in itself) and the map from the dyno session I dont see where its possible to get more fuel from the injectors unless there is some secret base injector setting that I am missing. Im no expert with ECM Spy here by any means.

As far as the TPS sweep that was questioned, I used the program to see if there were any dead spots in the TPS signal.

 

[gbalias]

......Compared the map to the saved tuned map and nothing significant had changed. ......

i had a question regarding your comparison of maps.

you have a map on the tuning pc that you burned to the bike. that map is the one you went to the track with, right?

after the issues you opened the map from the bike and compared it to the map on the computer and you say "nothing significant had changed" ...what do you mean by this? the map shouldnt change at all, ever....unless you burn it. so if there was changes....something weird is going on.

 

[gbalias]

youll get more fuel if the injectors are clogged (or faulty in some other way) now and you replace or rebuild them.

but lets not stop at injectors. the entire fuel system is suspect. do you have a way to splice in a pressure gauge to watch it while you ride it?

do you have a wideband and gauge? that can also help

 

[cjmech]

you have a map on the tuning pc that you burned to the bike. that map is the one you went to the track with, right?

after the issues you opened the map from the bike and compared it to the map on the computer and you say "nothing significant had changed" ...what do you mean by this? the map shouldnt change at all, ever....unless you burn it. so if there was changes....something weird is going on.

Once the bike was off the dyno I downloaded the map from the ecu and saved it.
When I came off the track I downloaded the map and compared it to the saved map just to see if anything was different. Now these changes I referenced may have been my own error as I created an excel sheet with the map/ign values that i may have put the wrong number down. This was also before I discovered that i could open both maps at the same time.

youll get more fuel if the injectors are clogged (or faulty in some other way) now and you replace or rebuild them

You lost me here...

I have an Innovate WB on my car but not on the bike. I do have the megalog HD viewer (have only tinkered with this)

I was thinking about making something to check the fuel pressure as well. At this time I do not.

 

[gbalias]

the map you had on the ecm after dyno (which wasnt altered by you prior to going to the track) should be identical to the one you pulled from the ecm after the track. there is no way the bike would have changed any values in any of those cells. that is, what i would consider the 'base map'.....all correction factors are a multiplier of values in that table(s).

I dont see where its possible to get more fuel from the injectors

i meant you can get more fuel out of the injectors if they/or one of them indeed is faulty in some way.


i use the innovate in one of my cars too, but i also have one permanently installed in bike. i then transfer the actual gauge between the two when i needed it on the buell, otherwise it lives in the car.

try and get a fuel pressure reading if its not too hard. other option would be to log it and use the scatter plots in MLV as i did to help you pinpoint fueling....but thats only effective with the WB.

 

[cjmech]

Ok, so I got a new used coil and wires today. Checked the resistance on the wires and made a set with the lowest resistance in them. Still not running on both cylinders... I pulled the intake off and spun the motor and both injectors are spraying fuel. Spark is strong at the plugs.... Im thinking CPS....

Still looking for how to check the thing....

ECM spy shows the trigger but pulls no code for a missfire. Or any other code for that matter....

Ideas?

 

[Chicknstripn]

Have you checked the static timing?
Just a thought.
Your bike is an 07 right? I have a CPS you can try out. If it doesn't work out or fix your issue send it back. If it fixes your bike, keep it.
One Bueller looking out for another.
PM me if youre interested.

 

[EricZ]

Yo cj! Not sure what is going on with my pm inbox but I am only getting emails that the box is full even though I deleted 250 old messages from it yesterday. Sorry man. Copy/paste what you had and post it here. Id like to help!

 

[gbalias]

at the very least you can pull it out and do a visual inspection. be sure its not cracked or anything. maybe rotor is loose? its got a keyway though so it 'shouldnt' spin on the shaft.

itd be weird if its only at high rpm for cps though.

stranger things have happened. symptoms point more toward fuel delivery

 

[cjmech]

Took the bike back to the tuner yesterday, checked fuel pressure (49-50 psi) went into ecmspy and reset the AFV to 100 and the front cylinder came back...

Put it back on the dyno today and just ran it thru the gears at different loads and rpm until there was an odd 02 voltage drop that didnt match the sniffer from the dyno. This was causing the adaptive fuel to react during this period and it was pulling the fuel out, the bike would fall on its face and stumble ect... reset the AFV again and it stopped.

We are thinking the 02 sensor is going bad but the problem is that its not tripping a code and why does it shut the front fueling off??

Local parts house has a sensor for $20 so I am going to replace it and then were going to put it back on the rollers to see if it happens again.

 

[cjmech]

gbalias,

Your inbox is full....

Yes, clicked the reset and she fired right up and idled. The AFV was at 100.

The bike is an 07.

I get that it wouldn't throw the code if it was getting the voltage from the sensor but why would it make an adjustment to pull fuel and then not correct itself based on said voltage?

 

[cjmech]

So today I got a new 02 sensor and installed it. We put it back on the dyno, Had the same problem... so...... We copied the stock closed loop area and pasted it into the tuned map and re-ran it. This time when the 02 voltage drops to 0 it made the AFV go up to 130 vs 69 on the tuned map. With the AFV at 130 it looses about 10 whp because its so rich.

So now im trying to figure out why the voltage drops. A theory I had is that the shielded wires are to close to the engine and getting to hot increasing the resistance possibly causing a voltage drop to the ECM. I re routed them as far away from the engine as I could. We will try again on friday. If that doesn't fix it then I will be looking at the harness and ECM.

 

[EricZ]

I am surprised you are seeing a change in the AFV on the dyno. The EGO correction is the closed loop correction applied based on the O2 sensor while in closed loop. With the factory LCL region, changes to the AFV only occur inside a very narrow operating window, much smaller than the closed loop region and takes longer to change. Do you mean EGO correction when you say AFV?

Also, the AFV impacts both fuel maps the same. There is no individual cylinder adjustment other than an engine temperature based fuel correction factor (which should not need to be changed). The A/F ratio of the front cylinder should trend the same as the rear.

 

[ich]

Open Loop Learn

 

[cjmech]

I am surprised you are seeing a change in the AFV on the dyno. The EGO correction is the closed loop correction applied based on the O2 sensor while in closed loop. With the factory LCL region, changes to the AFV only occur inside a very narrow operating window, much smaller than the closed loop region and takes longer to change. Do you mean EGO correction when you say AFV?

Also, the AFV impacts both fuel maps the same. There is no individual cylinder adjustment other than an engine temperature based fuel correction factor (which should not need to be changed). The A/F ratio of the front cylinder should trend the same as the rear.

The EGO Correction % is the number I believe he was talking about.

Is there a way to shut this off all together?

The bike runs like an animal all the way up until this voltage signal issue happens. Still makes no sense on why it makes the change then wont correct itself once it sees the signal again......

 

[EricZ]

Of course there is. Are you using the old ECMSpy or the new ECMSpy for Mono? That should have been done from the beginning of any tuning effort.

 

[cjmech]

Of course there is. What are you using to tune the ecm? That should have been done from the beginning of any tuning effort.

Using ECMSPY.

I should have asked if you can leave it turned off rather then just during the tuning process.

I know you turn the open loop learn function off for the tuning process. But if the tune keeps the AFV in the 97-100 range and you turn it back on, there shouldn't be any issues.... Or am I not understanding this process correctly?

The ECMSPY manual says to disconnect the 02 all together while on the dyno and that you have to tune to 14.7:1 in the closed loop area which makes sense but why did it dump in fuel when the voltage dropped and then not correct itself when the voltage came back..?

 

[EricZ]

I think you mean disable closed loop learn rather than disable open loop learn. You should leave open loop learn disabled at all times anyways. It is an option that I don't feel is beneficial.

Do you have a datalog with that event saved? If not, can you reproduce the issue and datalog to record what is happening? I, gbalias, or someone else with a proper understanding of the DDFI system can look at the datalog info and make an educated guess at the cause of your issue.

On a side note, do you have your "Open Loop Correction" set to 100%? Stock setting is 105% but should be changed to 100% if you are doing a full tune on a steady state dyno.