Burning too rich at idle
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Theycallmecrash
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I never recommend randomly changing your maps using online copies or race maps. A proper dyno tune is the safest bet.
900rpm is a bit low simply turn the idle screw up a bit. With the AFV set to 100 you will want to do a 15 minute ride cruising down the highway, recheck and see how it changed.
I prefer tunerpro for this stuff, cause it has an option to graph sensor data, you can see oxygen sensor switching, and throttle change... makes it easy to see a dead spot or lagging sensor.
Given your altitude, a "lean" condition is probably the result of a faulty input (rememeber all the data you see on ecmspy or tuner pro is, Interpreted. Not absolute)
900rpm is a bit low simply turn the idle screw up a bit. With the AFV set to 100 you will want to do a 15 minute ride cruising down the highway, recheck and see how it changed.
I prefer tunerpro for this stuff, cause it has an option to graph sensor data, you can see oxygen sensor switching, and throttle change... makes it easy to see a dead spot or lagging sensor.
Given your altitude, a "lean" condition is probably the result of a faulty input (rememeber all the data you see on ecmspy or tuner pro is, Interpreted. Not absolute)
thanks crash
i thought i was running rich with an afv of 125%, unless you're saying that because the ecm somehow thought it was running lean?
i can get you the data off tunerpro if you can point me towards how, i'm hesitant to ride the bike with the way it's running, lots of lag lot's of coughing
i thought i was running rich with an afv of 125%, unless you're saying that because the ecm somehow thought it was running lean?
i can get you the data off tunerpro if you can point me towards how, i'm hesitant to ride the bike with the way it's running, lots of lag lot's of coughing
Theycallmecrash
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Buell mods in my experience the file can be corrupted.
Also its not a fix all.
Like I said interpreted data. The ecm has add 25% fuel, is reads you are lean during closed loop (basically cruising speeds or constant) this means you could have a rich (factual) condition at idle low rpm. Hard to follow I know. Possible issues... tps, improper tps adjust, oxygen sensor, or altitude too high for stock maps require s custome map.
Also its not a fix all.
Like I said interpreted data. The ecm has add 25% fuel, is reads you are lean during closed loop (basically cruising speeds or constant) this means you could have a rich (factual) condition at idle low rpm. Hard to follow I know. Possible issues... tps, improper tps adjust, oxygen sensor, or altitude too high for stock maps require s custome map.
i follow, maybe stumblingly so but never the less
i'll try to ride it in the morning, but i figure now is a good time to rewrite the conditions as they are currently:
-Bike starts but idles low, sometimes idles out.
-Revs strong up to about 4000 rpm and then fails, often with backfiring out the air intake
-Much lower tone coming from engine then usual especially at low revs.
i have my prior map state saved also if i need a fall back. Would it maybe be a good idea to reset the ecm to factory conditions and go from there?
I'm also very interested now in learning the diagnostic tools in tunerpro, especially if the may more quickly narrow down the issue. Do you have and recommended reading?
Once again thanks for the "crash" course in tuning!
i'll try to ride it in the morning, but i figure now is a good time to rewrite the conditions as they are currently:
-Bike starts but idles low, sometimes idles out.
-Revs strong up to about 4000 rpm and then fails, often with backfiring out the air intake
-Much lower tone coming from engine then usual especially at low revs.
i have my prior map state saved also if i need a fall back. Would it maybe be a good idea to reset the ecm to factory conditions and go from there?
I'm also very interested now in learning the diagnostic tools in tunerpro, especially if the may more quickly narrow down the issue. Do you have and recommended reading?
Once again thanks for the "crash" course in tuning!
Chicknstripn
Well-known member
Have you checked for an intake leak? That could cause the issues you're describing. Also, like crash said, you have to drive the bike to help the ECM relearn the new parameters under load. Bike idling or revving in neutral won't help much. Try to set your idle around 1050 or 1100. My bike never liked 900rpms. I think that's the lowest recommended setting.
Chicknstripn
Well-known member
You'll need some brake cleaner, carb cleaner or propane. Which ever you think is best. Then you need to remove the cover or air scoop on the right side of the bike so that you can have access to the base of the throttle body. Start your bike and let it idle. Spray a little of any one of the above mentioned combustibles at the base of the throttle body(where the throttle body connects to the head). If you're idle changes at all, you have an intake leak. The change in the idle characteristic will be significant. Trust me. And it doesn't take much brake cleaner, carb cleaner, propane or whatever to cause a reaction if you do have an intake leak.
That's my six AM short and sweet how to test for an intake leak. You can probably search the threads on this board and find a better right up. You may be able to find a YouTube video that will illustrate "how to" much better than my idiotic instructions. Hopefully one of the true buell geniuses will chime in and give you a little better direction. Good luck
That's my six AM short and sweet how to test for an intake leak. You can probably search the threads on this board and find a better right up. You may be able to find a YouTube video that will illustrate "how to" much better than my idiotic instructions. Hopefully one of the true buell geniuses will chime in and give you a little better direction. Good luck
Theycallmecrash
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Given that you have a low idle, doubt its an intake leak, and falling on its face over 4k, not characteristic of vacuum leak either. That screw you used to set the throttle twist it until desired idle is achieved.
Are you sure the 4k rpm isnt more throttle related? If it is based on rpm sounds like fueling issues, low fuel pressure maybe, ignition break up, might not like the plugs or their gaps or even bad ignition wires.
If I get some time today at work, ill try to get a little demo video of tuner pro posted for you
Are you sure the 4k rpm isnt more throttle related? If it is based on rpm sounds like fueling issues, low fuel pressure maybe, ignition break up, might not like the plugs or their gaps or even bad ignition wires.
If I get some time today at work, ill try to get a little demo video of tuner pro posted for you
im not a fan of tunerpro mainly because of all the middle steps required for data. maybe it has changed in the past year or so, but for your bike, my preference is ecmspy and MLV to edit fueling and read logs. especially since it now has the scatter plot feature. pretty much a sure thing to diagnose issues in the FI (if you know what to plot and what to look for)
but thats probably for advanced users.
you also need to set the idle speed once the engine is ABOVE the 160degC temp. doing so at any other time is just gonna make it harder later on.
all the hiccups and hesitation is from lean condition (assuming EVERYTHING else on the bike is in good working order - ignition, fuel delivery, sensors, etc)
the best thing to do at this point in my opinion is to datalog a ride, replicate the symptoms, then go back and watch what everything is doing after reviewing the log.
the AFV is not used in the idle closed loop area, the EGO is a real time adjustment that keeps the fueling at 14.7 in those cells.
so you need to either take note or screenshot the EGO correction at idle and when engine is up to temp. (even though its applied to the fueling with the consideration of the cold start enrichment) but to make it easier for you as a beginner, you shouldbe doing all of this diagnosing with the engine at full temp.
also, i would look really hard for an intake leak as stated before. youve got a AD correction over 100% AND 120+ AFV .....AND youre at high elevation. all those things point to an air/vacuum leak or sensor issue. consider a rough rule of thumb, and all factors constant, youre looking at about a 3-4% in decrease of densitty per 1000ft of elev above sea level.
remember the ecm is concerned with air MASS, not volume because the volume here is constant (combustion chamber volume in this example)
ok sorry......i could go on all day about this and the theory of tuning.....lol
but thats probably for advanced users.
you also need to set the idle speed once the engine is ABOVE the 160degC temp. doing so at any other time is just gonna make it harder later on.
all the hiccups and hesitation is from lean condition (assuming EVERYTHING else on the bike is in good working order - ignition, fuel delivery, sensors, etc)
the best thing to do at this point in my opinion is to datalog a ride, replicate the symptoms, then go back and watch what everything is doing after reviewing the log.
the AFV is not used in the idle closed loop area, the EGO is a real time adjustment that keeps the fueling at 14.7 in those cells.
so you need to either take note or screenshot the EGO correction at idle and when engine is up to temp. (even though its applied to the fueling with the consideration of the cold start enrichment) but to make it easier for you as a beginner, you shouldbe doing all of this diagnosing with the engine at full temp.
also, i would look really hard for an intake leak as stated before. youve got a AD correction over 100% AND 120+ AFV .....AND youre at high elevation. all those things point to an air/vacuum leak or sensor issue. consider a rough rule of thumb, and all factors constant, youre looking at about a 3-4% in decrease of densitty per 1000ft of elev above sea level.
remember the ecm is concerned with air MASS, not volume because the volume here is constant (combustion chamber volume in this example)
ok sorry......i could go on all day about this and the theory of tuning.....lol
mmmkay. so i went for a 15 minute run. At first startup had trouble again and i had to work the throttle a little to get her going, bike idled out a couple of times also. Then it started to become more stable so i put it in gear and right away the bike failed under load. Sat there for a while reving the engine to warm it up some more and finally it was able to pull away.
Basically the bikes performance got gradually better as i rode. Lots of popping at first under acceleration which melowed out, later popping when engine braking but not much. Acceleration felt like it had a little lag even until the end of my ride but not much.
there's a stretch of road going into the town i live where traffic will keep you around 40, and on the way back in i stuck the bike in first gear just to test and it didn't like that very much at all, might've just been the engine braking but lots of popping and the engine became jumpy.
anyway i got back plugged in ecm spy and this is what i saw
Basically the bikes performance got gradually better as i rode. Lots of popping at first under acceleration which melowed out, later popping when engine braking but not much. Acceleration felt like it had a little lag even until the end of my ride but not much.
there's a stretch of road going into the town i live where traffic will keep you around 40, and on the way back in i stuck the bike in first gear just to test and it didn't like that very much at all, might've just been the engine braking but lots of popping and the engine became jumpy.
anyway i got back plugged in ecm spy and this is what i saw
couple things i just noticed. i ran the fuel pump diagnostic and it gave off a strong whiff of gas, about 60 seconds after it was done i heard a loud click, though i can't be sure it was from the pump it sounded to be in that area of the bike.
just incase here's the fuel map again
just incase here's the fuel map again
id like to see a screenshot while its idling.
the numbers are deceiving when its at 0rpm.
you sure you didnt mess with any of the enrichment maps? to have 120% and at a 150degC temp is screwy.
the 135% EGO correction is showing us that at the idle cells, its adding 35% of fuel to make it at 14.7
meaning there is either a dramatic shortage of fuel, or a great abundance of air.......
the numbers are deceiving when its at 0rpm.
you sure you didnt mess with any of the enrichment maps? to have 120% and at a 150degC temp is screwy.
the 135% EGO correction is showing us that at the idle cells, its adding 35% of fuel to make it at 14.7
meaning there is either a dramatic shortage of fuel, or a great abundance of air.......
Theycallmecrash
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Sounding like fuel pressure issue.
gballas; I haven't touched the enrichment maps, though i can't guarantee the previous owner didn't, tps is high because i was trying to get the bike to idle, which it never did well even 6º.
crash i have to agree that somehow fuel is not making it where it's supposed to as up here at 7280ft above sea level i can't see there being an abundance of air.
crash i have to agree that somehow fuel is not making it where it's supposed to as up here at 7280ft above sea level i can't see there being an abundance of air.
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