First ever 'issue' with the bike - would love some electrical help (lights fuse)

[Cooter]

I have no idea what those videos are for. Every one of them is unrelated to your problem and off-topic.

No, ignore the green wire. You only disconnected it to eliminate the solonoid and starter from the 'popping fuse' symptom. Which it did. Now you need to know if you need a solonoid (#21) or the whole thing.

The schematic that Lunatic posted shows the starter wire (#23) that gets jumped to the battery terminal OR to the terminal on the solenoid (that's not shown on the diagram), but its the big terminal you see in the e-bay pics. Should take you about 3 whole seconds to do it.

Replacing a starter is simple, but a PITA, and requires taking the primary cover off/fluid etc. The solenoid is much easier and cheaper. The test is quick, jump the big starter terminal (#23) to the big solonoid terminal you can see on top and if the solonoid (big square box mounted to the round starter). If the bike cranks over and doesn't pop the fuse, get a solonoid. If the fuse pops, doublecheck the big wires aren't grounded and then buy a starter.

Thanks Lunatic! Where the heck do you find that interchange info, it's priceless!

 

[vicenzajay]

no idea where this thread is headed but here's what you need to know:
1-the entire starter assembly interchanges with 96-2005 chrysler mini-van starter assemblies. most are mitsubishi brand.
2-you don't need to replace the entire assembly. dealer list is $369 last i checked. ebay ones typically 1/4th that price and chinese garbage units.
2-the starter assembly consists of 3 components: the starter case and drive motor....the clutch drive hub....the solenoid.
3-DO NOT run the starter motor with the primary cover removed as in the one vid posted on this thread.
4-remove starter motor and simply replace the solenoid. this popped fuse you've been chasing? told you the simple test and you've performed same. that test shows a shorted solenoid. factory part # 31603-91 STARTER SOLENOID REPAIR KIT still over 7500 in dealer system last i checked. simply remove and replace. the solenoid activates the starter assembly. it is the big gizmo mounted atop the starter assembly and attach with 2 very long screws.
5-an XB starter assembly virtually identical to H-D sporster repair and replace procedure and is very challenging for a novice. here's the schematic.
View attachment 8760

As usual - this is awesome and just what I need. Once I've tested the starter motor and (hopefully) narrowed this down to the solenoid, this is exactly what I'll do (the repair kit) - and I'll have someone more experienced do it for me.

So - from a visual perspective - if I'm sitting on the right side of the bike - looking inward at the starter/solenoid assembly - the large terminal to the rear of the bike (my left) to which a larger wire loom is descending is the solenoid terminal, correct? From that perspective - where visually is #23...the starter terminal?

Thanks in advance...

 

[vicenzajay]

So for double checking the big wires for an errant ground - talk me through how to do that. I can use a multi-meter (I've constructed numerous guitar pedals, instrument cables, and done simple continuity tests often enough) - just need the description of the procedure.

My first guess (since we're talking about the positive battery cable feed to the starter, right?) is that I disconnect the battery cable - put the MM in ohms (not sure which scale) - one lead on the disconnected positive battery cable and one lead on a ground (tie bar ground wire?). The MM should show infinite resistance, right? If not, there's a short to ground in the wire?

I can do this - just need to make sure I'm putting leads in the right place, etc.

 

[Cooter]

Lunatic: Thats funny! I can't say I'm surprised, there's no reason to re-engineer every single ancillary part of an engine. Gotta wonder about the seal issue though, the auto engine wouldn't need it. Have you tried it? That may be the issue with the wrong application of the rare-electrical part?

V: The short wouldn't be in the battery cable or there would be a whole lot of smoke and fire:upset:. It could be in the very short wire (#23) that leads from the solonoid to the starter The starter lead is only energized when the starter is cranking (and right when the fuse blows). Ohm meter on the lowest setting, one lead grounded, the other on that (#23) end, hopefully the meter reads infinity, which means its ok. You could just stick your hand around and see if theres any corruption to the wire insulation too, the wire is about 3" long.

 

[submax]

John and Shaughn...sure appreciate both of you guys being so detailed in sharing your knowledge. I hope to not have solenoid/starter issues...but I'll definitely be looking at this thread if I ever do! :up:

 

[vicenzajay]

Replacing a starter is simple, but a PITA, and requires taking the primary cover off/fluid etc. The solenoid is much easier and cheaper. The test is quick, jump the big starter terminal (#23) to the big solonoid terminal you can see on top and if the solonoid (big square box mounted to the round starter). If the bike cranks over and doesn't pop the fuse, get a solonoid. If the fuse pops, doublecheck the big wires aren't grounded and then buy a starter.

Cooter,

Is there a procedure to replace/repair solenoid WITHOUT removing the starter/primary cover/etc.? That would be a hugely important thing to know in my "way ahead" plan. It seems to be what you're implying in this post, but I'm not sure how that would go (if the starter and solenoid are one unit)?

 

[user_deleted]

John and Shaughn...sure appreciate both of you guys being so detailed in sharing your knowledge. I hope to not have solenoid/starter issues...but I'll definitely be looking at this thread if I ever do! :up:

anytime james and thanks for the very kind words. i have to finish up a bike build and a mach-III 500 restoration then tearing into that pitiful old Vincent. i'll do what you said and send you some pics along the way.

 

[vicenzajay]

More to follow - but I got the bike down to Kevin today, and we troubleshot the problem. The culprit turned out to be something quite different than anything suggested or pointed to on this thread.

For those 'non-mechanics' or novice troubleshooters (like me) that might look this thread up in the future - the offending circuit was the clutch safety assembly that plugs into the left gear housing. Kevin had spent some time on the phone with a couple of folks about my issues - Al (formerly of ASB) and another friend advised him (us) to check any 'safety' assemblies on the bike. Once we unplugged that two-wire plug on the left housing, the bike started right up (after re-inserting the signal wire). We were then able to reinsert the safety circuit plug and successfully duplicated the problem by promptly blowing the fuse.

He's keeping the bike for a bit to do a couple of other things (O2 sensor replacement, etc.), but the solenoid and starter are in perfect shape. We're going to remove the safety circuit to take it out of any future contention (and I don't want it - probably the most important reason - didn't even know it existed).

 

[Cooter]

What the? How the heck?
Not sure how that happened but really happy you are going again and can get some relaxation on the Buell. Now get it back and go ride

 

[user_deleted]

"clutch safety assembly"......"left gear housing"? never heard of either.
circled is alternator plug

 

[vicenzajay]

I'll take a picture when I get the bike back...

It's a small - two wire 'slide in' plug right at the clutch lever (underneath it) - directly beside left switch gear housing (inboard of it). Apparently its purpose is to keep the bike from starting if it is in gear and the clutch lever is not pulled. Kind of a bear to get to (as far as it's placement - right underneath clutch cable and switch gear housing cable bundle).

As an extra bonus, I was able to cancel the parts order I was having shipped to Kevin for what I thought was the issue. That was fortunate

 

[Cooter]

Loosen the allen bolts and rotate the clutch perch for easy access to the screw that holds that switch. If that is circuit with the actual problem, I'd check the wiring really well. Can't even imagine how the switch could short to ground. Its plastic.

 

[vicenzajay]

Yeah - I'm going to let Kevin take care of it that way. We're going to terminate the wires, and neatly zip tie them away as well...as I don't want that safety in the circuit at all. Just something else to fail and really (just my opinion) shouldn't be needed for a bike the caliber of an XB.

I can understand the safeties on my Blast (which most of us Blast-folks defeat anyway by swapping a fuse around, etc.). A bike really leveraged as a training/beginner bike probably needs a few safeties (kick stand, clutch, etc.).

 

[user_deleted]

I'll take a picture when I get the bike back...

It's a small - two wire 'slide in' plug right at the clutch lever (underneath it) - directly beside left switch gear housing (inboard of it). Apparently its purpose is to keep the bike from starting if it is in gear and the clutch lever is not pulled. Kind of a bear to get to (as far as it's placement - right underneath clutch cable and switch gear housing cable bundle).

As an extra bonus, I was able to cancel the parts order I was having shipped to Kevin for what I thought was the issue. That was fortunate

you're referring to the clutch interlock switch. still no idea what a "left gear housing" is. the switch is a plain nippon-denso button switch. it's the simplest of "circuit interrupter" switches ever installed on a cycle as is the side-stand switch. it cannot short-to-ground causing a 15 amp fuse to blow. impossible! you have something else going on there.

 

[vicenzajay]

you're referring to the clutch interlock switch. still no idea what a "left gear housing" is. the switch is a plain nippon-denso button switch. it's the simplest of "circuit interrupter" switches ever installed on a cycle as is the side-stand switch. it cannot short-to-ground causing a 15 amp fuse to blow. impossible! you have something else going on there.

Hey John - always appreciate your wisdom.

So, first - obviously (at 10 p.m. Thursday night after 6 hours in the car, loading, unloading, etc.) I forgot to type the word "switch" and typed "gear" instead. I've seen it called a "switch gear housing" any number of times on the forum and elsewhere - so I was tired and trying to convey what we found.

To your point here. Of course, this is obviously the case (i.e. there's a short somewhere in the wiring that feeds or returns from the interlock switch). I'm not the electrician, so I can't say anything other than when it's unplugged, the bike runs perfectly. When it's plugged in, the lights fuse pops. We can duplicate and reduplicate the problem and its mitigation at will.

There is one person I would trust with tearing into the wiring harness and trying to find the point at which the wires feeding that tiny switch are 'messed up' - namely you. Understandably (with the amazing demands on your schedule and talents) you are unable to do that for some time - i.e. well into next year. Anyone else, especially the Harley dealership here, WILL create many more problems instead of just fixing the wiring issue - all for the price of several hundred (or a thousand) dollars.

After more than 20 years flying jet aircraft for the Navy, to include 15 months of my department head tour as the Maintenance Officer of the squadron, I am acutely aware of the fact that the ONE thing that inexorably kills vehicles (air or ground) is non-use. Airplanes that fly often, are 'up' airplanes for the flight schedule. Regardless of my own desire to ride, etc., my main motivation in this case is to not have the bike sit for 6+ months. Given that there seems to be a relatively innocuous fix that allows the bike to run normally (albeit without a clutch interlock safety - which I hope by now I don't need), removing it from the circuit seems to be the best solution for now - until I have the honor of being able to to bring the bike to you and we can sort out the root problem.

Is that fair?

 

[Cooter]

He's just saying it's an odd problem.

 

[user_deleted]

jay: i understand and appreciate the kind words. whoever is wrenching on your bike tell them the below. it's the simple test to find the source of this short-to-ground since disconnecting the clutch lever interlock switch resulted in a positive result. tell him to do this if he hasn't already:
1-remove the 2 wires from the clutch lever switch. jump those 2 wires with simple jumper wire.
2-if he removed the lights fuse and start relay replace them. make sure battery is fully charged. now try to start it. fuse ok? replace the switch.
3-fuse still pops? follow the wiring looms down from the right side and left side switch gear to the steering neck assembly and check for rubbing or chafing. that's where the problem lies. it's a simple ground-to-short situation.
4-switch part # is 68645-96Y infinite amount in system as of today and cost is cheap.
5-one more test of the switch to verify its operating as intended is to start the bike....get heat in the motor....let it settle to warm curb speed idle. on 2008 and later XB's with switch mounted correctly and both wires connected you simply pull in the clutch lever which bumps up the curb idle speed approx. 200 rpm. that confirms the switch is good.

 

[vicenzajay]

Thanks, John.

Will do - the person with the bike is Kevin Drum (Drummer mufflers)...I'll pass this along.

At some point next year, I can still see this bike coming your way when you have time :angel:

 

[vicenzajay]

Follow up on this longer thread from quite a while back.

Short version - didn't get bike back until May. I wanted to get it in Jan, but timing was never right down south. I'll stop there because I want to be kind and stay positive. When I did get the bike back it was in 'not good' shape. And nothing had really been fixed on the bike (other than the O2 sensor getting replaced, which was good to get done). All the little stuff that happened in the thread above was unresolved, and the bike sustained some environmental exposure as well unfortunately.

I literally spent 3 weeks on purely aesthetic and material condition rehabilitation. She looks beautiful again. I then did the following with great directions and help from John:

- Bike started very roughly, and John recommended changing plugs. I did so and also replaced wires as well. There was an interesting sound at 2K rpm (rattle from rear of bike it seemed) that also sent me on a fastener search expedition all over the place. Good opportunity to check integrity for the entire motorcycle. Noise is gone now.

- Rode the bike a few times to get fluids through it/warm it up/etc. Bike ran "okay" - but idled terribly badly (throwing codes, etc.). This was due to the hot-wired clutch sensor switch (taking it out of the equation, but this is something the ECM does *not like). John helped greatly here - the codes were mainly idle related (and then voltage dropping, causing related codes).

- As a result of codes, I cleaned the IAC thoroughly, checked the IAT, and changed the speed sensor (which really did need changed - the interior of the sensor portion was trashed). Also spent about 4 hours and painstakingly and slowly removed, cleaned, protected and re-installed *every* ground I could access. I also installed an additional rear ignition module screw-to-subframe ground wire discussed at length in numerous threads.

- Clutch sensor switch replaced (took a while for this to arrive in the mail) - this *fixed* the lights fuse issue completely. This is the issue that resulted in this thread. That said, some 'idiot' previously had cross threaded the screw for that switch into the handlebar housing and it took 2 days of painstaking work (I was channeling 'zen' thoughts furiously) to free the screw without damaging the housing. For anyone's future reference, that screw is a 4-40 countersunk head machine screw. Do *not use a finer threaded screw (as my predecessor did) and force it into the housing. What a pain in the ass.

- I changed the rear tire (it was definitely time), and then rode the bike some more. No more codes simply as a result of new clutch sensor - so somehow that switch's failure *can* result in the circuit tripping the breaker. By the way, cleaning the grounding points netted a full half a volt more of resting voltage on the voltmeter (that I got from John several years ago). There was obviously a point or two of higher resistance that got corrected in the cleaning process. Everyone should have one of those voltmeters on their bike.

- So the other big issue was the frozen fender screw (which simply would not come out with EZ outs, heat, etc.). The issue with those screws on my bike is described more fully above. Once I got the bike back, I contacted some friends at a local shop (they do suspension) and asked about them servicing the forks and additionally drill-pressing out all the screws with the forks off the bike. Note that John has seen inside my forks just 4K miles ago and pronounced them in perfect shape. So I really didn't need to have them serviced, etc. at this point. Anyway, this past weekend (and because the shop had still not called well past their forecast date to call me) I bit the bullet and drilled the screws out myself (on the bike), taking my time (hours) and being super anal about the process. 3 out 4 fasteners drilled out perfectly - didn't even mess up a single original thread of the mounting holes. One was a bit off, but it was close enough to be easily tapped by an original fastener and some penetrating oil. It just took time, of course. Given that the fastener issue was resolved, there was no need to remove the forks (i.e. lots of saved money on my part).

- Lastly, my son and I swapped out the front tire as well (now have a set of Q3+ tires on there) following John's procedure exactly, and put everything back together again.

Bike is running great again - still frustrated at the fact that these 'smaller' issues (most notably fasteners) resulted in 8 months of non-use and environmental wear and tear that never should have happened. I should not have taken the bike out of the house in this case. That was a mistake - I suppose I should be thankful that I had been religious about cleaning and protection after every single ride, so any exposure was mitigated (and reversible - even if it meant replacing some bolts, etc.).

Hopefully that's the end of these issues. Sorry for the longer post, but I wanted to follow up on what was an interesting saga for me.