Harley closing KC factory

[modrummer]

You can spin it anyway you want, but the truth is that, presently, an all electric vehicle, whether it be a car or motorcycle, does not have anywhere near the versatility of an internal combustion vehicle. You say the technology will be ready next year. Tesla has been saying the technology would be ready now, five years ago, and they have only marginally improved their range since then.

I think it's a massive stretch to say it doesn't have "anywhere near" the versatility. My little pickup truck goes 350 miles on a tank of gas, and takes a few minutes to fill it up (and costs $40 to do so). The Tesla Model S goes 300 miles on a full charge (if you don't have the newer larger capacity battery packs) and will charge in 30-45 minutes FOR FREE (though I understand the tax side is up for debate. But EVERYONE shares in those taxes, so why not reap some of the rewards?). I would call that pretty darn similar. Now I realize different people have different standards, but I haven't had to drive for 300 miles without a stop for a couple months. Really the ONLY time that range comes in to play is if you are taking a roadtrip.

And on the other side of the barrel, the Tesla is doing this while being FASTER than a Buell XB12 and on par with the 1125 in the 1/4 mile. Personally I think that is a pretty impressive feat. Pretty much any internal combustion engine car that can turn a 10 second quarter mile from the factory either gets single digit gas mileage and would be trash at daily commuting, and here's a family sedan that is quiet and sophisticated and fairly understated, that can run with modern 600cc bikes. Pretty nuts.

I don't own an electric car, and I have no plans to. I'm just a car and bike enthusiast who has respect for technology. I don't want the internal combustion engine to go away, and I don't think it will in our lifetime. And even once it stops being the mainstream power maker in our daily driver cars (hopefully a century away), it will most likely live on as a hobby in drag cars and motorcycles and such.

 

[modrummer]

"Taxpayers" actually pay for absolutely everything so....

You both are right in certain respects. One of you is hopeful for technological advancements, the other sees real world 'older' tech on the roads today. There is a place for electric vehicles today, proven by the amount of Priuses that try to kill me daily on the highway. There will be a place for them tomorrow too. Whether you personally need them is up to you and your lifestyle.
I won't be looking for a 1-ton electric pick-up to tow my trailer, nor do I forsee needing an electric motorcycle. Honestly I don't need a motorcycle at all. But that is exactly my point.

Well said Cooter. And like I pointed out, different strokes for different folks. The fact of the matter is, we are all small fish in a big ocean and we have almost no say in what way the transportation market will go in the future.

I do see big advancements in the hybrid market (both the hybrid supercar market like the P1, LaFerrari, NSX, Porsche 918 etc... and the "regular" car market), but mostly because the ELECTRIC car part of the hybrid system is still improving.

Out of curiosity Greg, where do you live? I've noticed that different parts of the country have taken to electric cars more readily than others. Here in Kansas City, you can find a couple electric cars in any parking lot you park in, and there's a Tesla probably every 5 minutes on the road. However when I was in Colorado last year, I noticed FAR less electric cars being used. And then I visisted California last fall for a week and I got so bored of seeing Teslas... literally it seemed like 1 out of every 5 cars was a Tesla. Most likely due to California emissions laws and tax breaks for electric cars.

 

[Cooter]

I see Nissan Leafs and Electric Fiats everywhere. Lots and lots of short commutes around here...

 

[BuellyBagger]

Even little old Nebraska City has a charging station! The city actually owns a Nissan leaf. So at least you know you could leave kc, stop for lunch here on 1/2 charge, leave on full, continue to Omaha or even des Moines with no more inconvenience than any one in a gas car! I'm all for electrics, just wish they'd get cheaper. If my wife's escape could be powered similar to a model x, that'd be great!

 

[GregoXB]

Battery power could be viable for people who own a home in the suburbs with a garage for over night charging with short daily commutes. Many people live in apartments, own condos or co-ops and park in lots or on the street, so electric is out of the question. People who live in the country, need range and versatility like a pickup truck to tow a trailer.

Sure there are some electric cars out there, but how many of those people own a second car, use Uber/Lyft, rent gas powered cars or take buses for trips? Battery power is an interesting option, but it is no where near adequate for the travel needs of modern society.

Everyone also neglects to talk abut the process of building batteries and then properly disposing of them when they are done. Do you know how much earth need to be moved to obtain that precious lithium? Then they pour ammonium sulfate and caustic acids into the earth to isolate what they need. Mining on that scale destroys ecosystems and poisons drinking water among other things. You think the machines moving that earth are electric powered? When the batteries are done, they are not very recycle friendly.

 

[modrummer]

Even little old Nebraska City has a charging station! The city actually owns a Nissan leaf. So at least you know you could leave kc, stop for lunch here on 1/2 charge, leave on full, continue to Omaha or even des Moines with no more inconvenience than any one in a gas car! I'm all for electrics, just wish they'd get cheaper. If my wife's escape could be powered similar to a model x, that'd be great!

Heck yeah! Have you ever seen that video of the Tesla Model X out running a Lamborghini Huracan in the 1/4 on a track? Crazines...

 

[GregoXB]

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/teslas-electric-cars-might-not-green-think/

This is a good article on what battery power really entails.

 

[modrummer]

Battery power could be viable for people who own a home in the suburbs with a garage for over night charging with short daily commutes. Many people live in apartments, own condos or co-ops and park in lots or on the street, so electric is out of the question. People who live in the country, need range and versatility like a pickup truck to tow a trailer.

Again, respectfully, I would have to disagree. I see full electrics parked on the street and at apartment complexes around here all the time. Obviously it depends on how well electric cars have been adopted in your city, but as I stated earlier, most large businesses around here have electric vehicle charging stations. A few of the guys I work with have electric cars with no charge port at home because they just plug it in at work 5 days a week. And in reality, I drive about 200 miles a week. Which means I would only need to charge up a Tesla about once a week. Definitely don't need to have a home to charge it at then! Just plug it in at the grocery store when you are making the weekly shop!

Sure there are some electric cars out there, but how many of those people own a second car, use Uber/Lyft, rent gas powered cars or take buses for trips? Battery power is an interesting option, but it is no where near adequate for the travel needs of modern society.

Everyone also neglects to talk abut the process of building batteries and then properly disposing of them when they are done. Do you know how much earth need to be moved to obtain that precious lithium? Then they pour ammonium sulfate and caustic acids into the earth to isolate what they need. Mining on that scale destroys ecosystems and poisons drinking water among other things. You think the machines moving that earth are electric powered? When the batteries are done, they are not very recycle friendly.

I would say a very small percentage of electric car owners (at least around here) use buses or Uber for transportation. There just isn't a need for it, even the cheapest electric cars these days have a ~100 mile range which is more than adequate for the daily commute (closer to the weekly commute for some to be honest).

As has been said a million times, different strokes for different folks! Obviously I'm not going to convince you that electric cars are way more advanced than you've read, and you aren't going to convince me that they aren't viable options for most people. I would encourage you if you have a Tesla dealer near you to swing by and take a free test ride though. It's pretty cool to drive a high powered electric car if you never have before, feels nothing like internal combustion when you have an engine with no shift points (no transmission) and 600+ ft. lbs. of torque right off the line. Super weird feeling.

I won't comment on the battery portion as I know very little about that process and I'm wary of spreading false information. All anti-electric car people quote stats about nickel pollution from batteries and all pro-electric car people quote stats about carbon monoxide and other exhaust emissions. I haven't done enough research on that to form my own opinion on what's true (possibly both!).

 

[GregoXB]

Again, respectfully, I would have to disagree. I see full electrics parked on the street and at apartment complexes around here all the time. Obviously it depends on how well electric cars have been adopted in your city, but as I stated earlier, most large businesses around here have electric vehicle charging stations. A few of the guys I work with have electric cars with no charge port at home because they just plug it in at work 5 days a week. And in reality, I drive about 200 miles a week. Which means I would only need to charge up a Tesla about once a week. Definitely don't need to have a home to charge it at then! Just plug it in at the grocery store when you are making the weekly shop!




I would say a very small percentage of electric car owners (at least around here) use buses or Uber for transportation. There just isn't a need for it, even the cheapest electric cars these days have a ~100 mile range which is more than adequate for the daily commute (closer to the weekly commute for some to be honest).

As has been said a million times, different strokes for different folks! Obviously I'm not going to convince you that electric cars are way more advanced than you've read, and you aren't going to convince me that they aren't viable options for most people. I would encourage you if you have a Tesla dealer near you to swing by and take a free test ride though. It's pretty cool to drive a high powered electric car if you never have before, feels nothing like internal combustion when you have an engine with no shift points (no transmission) and 600+ ft. lbs. of torque right off the line. Super weird feeling.

I won't comment on the battery portion as I know very little about that process and I'm wary of spreading false information. All anti-electric car people quote stats about nickel pollution from batteries and all pro-electric car people quote stats about carbon monoxide and other exhaust emissions. I haven't done enough research on that to form my own opinion on what's true (possibly both!).

I guess we will just have to disagree then. I can see you are very passionate. Many people are caught up in the hype, almost cult like.

I live in a major city and I commute daily and I am just not seeing those Teslas. Last one I saw was 3 months ago, and it cut me off lol....

Motorcycles, yet to see a battery powered motorcycle on the street. I know for sure though, they won't be joining us for a our yearly Buell escape into the mountains that entails a 600 mile blast through the twisties!!! Woohoo!! Have fun at that charging station, enjoy your Subway sandwich lmfao...

 

[modrummer]

I guess we will just have to disagree then. I can see you are very passionate. Many people are caught up in the hype, almost cult like.

I live in a major city and I commute daily and I am just not seeing those Teslas. Last one I saw was 3 months ago, and it cut me off lol....

Motorcycles, yet to see a battery powered motorcycle on the street. I know for sure though, they won't be joining us for a our yearly Buell escape into the mountains that entails a 600 mile blast through the twisties!!! Woohoo!! Have fun at that charging station, enjoy your Subway sandwich lmfao...

Hey now, I didn't say anything about the PEOPLE who drive Teslas hehehe. I won't vouch for them haha. Too many people with custom license plates to show how "green" they are.

I've never really been interested in the "green" side of electric cars, I'm a performance enthusiast at heart (have an old hot rodded corvette, and obviously the Buell), and the Teslas have just appealed to me on the performance and feasibility side.

Deal! Have fun with that aftermarket fuel tank that somehow holds 15 gallons on your Buell so you can ride for 600 miles

 

[GregoXB]

Hey now, I didn't say anything about the PEOPLE who drive Teslas hehehe. I won't vouch for them haha. Too many people with custom license plates to show how "green" they are.

I've never really been interested in the "green" side of electric cars, I'm a performance enthusiast at heart (have an old hot rodded corvette, and obviously the Buell), and the Teslas have just appealed to me on the performance and feasibility side.

Deal! Have fun with that aftermarket fuel tank that somehow holds 15 gallons on your Buell so you can ride for 600 miles

No worries. There are many gas stations in the vicinity with 93 octane. I'll go for 220+ miles fill the tank in 60 seconds and go for another 220miles. Instead of eating subway, I will enjoy a home cooked meal run by a local family who has a dinner notched out into the side of the mountain, no charging stations around there, so sorry.

I know this thread has gotten a little out of hand, but just to some up where we are at:

modrummer's main position is that he (or she i don't know) thinks that electric motorcycles will have the versatility, range and as many charging/fueling stations as a combustion motorcycle in about 1-2 years.
GregoXB's point is that electric motorcycle will not have that versatility for another 10-20 years, if ever.

 

[modrummer]

No worries. There are many gas stations in the vicinity with 93 octane. I'll go for 220+ miles fill the tank in 60 seconds and go for another 220miles. Instead of eating subway, I will enjoy a home cooked meal run by a local family who has a dinner notched out into the side of the mountain, no charging stations around there, so sorry.

I know this thread has gotten a little out of hand, but just to some up where we are at:

modrummer's main position is that he (or she i don't know) thinks that electric motorcycles will have the versatility, range and as many charging/fueling stations as a combustion motorcycle in about 1-2 years.
GregoXB's point is that electric motorcycle will not have that versatility for another 10-20 years, if ever.

HAHA! Ok and this is where I leave the thread. At NO point did I say that electric bikes (or cars) would have as many charging stations as gas stations. I stated Multiple times that electric vehicles have come a LONG way and have similar range as combustion engined vehicles with very reasonable recharge times (30-45 minutes). It was an interesting debate, but I'd rather cut it off before it starts to get more childish.

Have a good one man

 

[GregoXB]

Actually I'd be shocked if that technology wasn't around in the next year or two.

Wow, so sad you forgot what you said less than 24 hours ago.

I really should have known better to get into it with you. My mistake.

 

[Cooter]

You both are pretty passionate and you both have valid points. Theres no 'free' in energy. In the heart of the urban sprawl I live in, I know quite a few people that have electric only vehicles. Every one of them has another vehicle as well. They aren't for me, but who knows? Them little Fiats are pretty quick (up to 65) but I'd have to tint the heck out of the windows and park waaaay down the block:upset:

I also had a friends Testla P90D (the one with dual motors) give me quite the run while I was on my CR!! #Respect! I honestly see 30+ of them every single day. From Cali to Florida. I'm impressed just from the point of the sheer cost of them! Lots of rich people I guess?

One thing you can't deny that in our current (PUUUUNNNNN!!!) electronic age, slow or fast, progress will be made. I'm still hoping for a Hydrogen infrastructure. We have a work van that is natural gas and a PITA to get between LA and Phoenix. Sweating range bullets sometimes. lol