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NOMORE4s4ME
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Ha...sorry. But I wouldn't argue with 'em
GatorBuell
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Hey Trill, Des. Eagle is a staple in america's armory. That said I wouldn't own one. I'm a revolver man ever since my dad's S&W 41 Magnum with 7inch barrel. That's a beast.
Gator,
How do you like that rabbit gun? Never had much use for one myself and I'm supposed to take that piece of crap to war... I'd rather take my bolt action Rem. 700 30-06. The bustmaster is fine for anything under 25lbs. Over that and it's damn near useless... What do you use it for?
Gator,
How do you like that rabbit gun? Never had much use for one myself and I'm supposed to take that piece of crap to war... I'd rather take my bolt action Rem. 700 30-06. The bustmaster is fine for anything under 25lbs. Over that and it's damn near useless... What do you use it for?
Stevenc150
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Trill, the Desert Eagle is an accurate beast for a .45, probably too big to be swinging around with adrenaline flowing though and definitely too heavy to pack, like carrying a 10lb. weight in a holster when fully loaded.
Gator's .410 in a .45 pistol isn't such a bad idea since it's 00-buckshot. That's like shooting 4 or 5 .22 shells in one shot. Which is deadly cause it's small enough to get through skin easily, and carries velocity enough to bounce around and cause lots of damage to internal vitals. NASTY. (Know this from deer hunting with buckshot. I've known it to bounce around all the way from the heart where it was shot, to ruining the hams in the rear legs.)
But just like our Buells...to each his own.
Gator's .410 in a .45 pistol isn't such a bad idea since it's 00-buckshot. That's like shooting 4 or 5 .22 shells in one shot. Which is deadly cause it's small enough to get through skin easily, and carries velocity enough to bounce around and cause lots of damage to internal vitals. NASTY. (Know this from deer hunting with buckshot. I've known it to bounce around all the way from the heart where it was shot, to ruining the hams in the rear legs.)
But just like our Buells...to each his own.
Hey Bordsnbikes,
Just wanted to let you know that the khat stuff may be like PCP and that's fine. But I've been hit with .22 round before and I'll be the first one to tell you that it's not ****, it will not EFFECTIVELY stop an individual regardless of whether they are on a stimulant or not. It can 'possibly' cause damage if it bounces around inside the individual but that is not as often the case as one would hope/think/want/pray/etc. If it doesn't bounce around inside then the individual lives to fight another day.
Some information on "khat" taken from here
Khat
Khat (pronounced COT) is known by over 40 different street names including, kat, qat, chat, gat, graba, tohai, tschat, and mirraa. Khat is a stimulant derived from Catha Edulis, a 6-12-foot flowering evergreen shrub. The fresh young leaves of the shrub have been consumed where the plant is cultivated, primarily in East Africa and the Arabian peninsula. There, chewing khat predates the use of coffee and is used in a similar social context. It is estimated that over 10 million people use and abuse Khat today, primarily in the Middle East.
Khat is used for its stimulant effects. The effects are similar to but less intense than those of methamphetamine or cocaine. Fresh leaves are chewed and dried leaves are smoked, made into a paste and chewed, or brewed in tea. Used moderately, khat alleviates fatigue and reduces appetite. Long term use or abuse can cause insomnia, anorexia, gastric disorders, depression, liver damage and cardiac complications. Manic behavior, delusional behavior, violence, suicidal depression, hallucinations, paranoia and khat-induced psychosis have also been reported.
Khat contains a number of chemicals among which are two controlled substances, cathinone (Schedule I) and cathine (Schedule IV). As the leaves mature or dry, cathinone is converted to cathine which significantly reduces its stimulatory properties. Cathinone is approximately 10 more times more potent than cathine and is only present in fresh leaves.
Cathine, the secondary active ingredient in Khat, does not lose much of its potency with age as with cathinone. Leaves less than 48 hours old are preferred to ensure a maximum potency of cathinone. However, Khat can be preserved by freezing, the same way that vegetables and meats are kept fresh in the United States.
I matched the information found on that particular site to a few other sites so it is rather accurate.
If you take a chunk (kinda large piece) of flesh out of somebody with a large caliber round (anything over a .308 should do) they tend to at least fall down and stay down...
What the **** ever happened to "ONE SHOT ONE KILL"?
BTW I'd love an M14.
sorry for the longish ranty thingy.
M14 FTW!
Just wanted to let you know that the khat stuff may be like PCP and that's fine. But I've been hit with .22 round before and I'll be the first one to tell you that it's not ****, it will not EFFECTIVELY stop an individual regardless of whether they are on a stimulant or not. It can 'possibly' cause damage if it bounces around inside the individual but that is not as often the case as one would hope/think/want/pray/etc. If it doesn't bounce around inside then the individual lives to fight another day.
Some information on "khat" taken from here
Khat
Khat (pronounced COT) is known by over 40 different street names including, kat, qat, chat, gat, graba, tohai, tschat, and mirraa. Khat is a stimulant derived from Catha Edulis, a 6-12-foot flowering evergreen shrub. The fresh young leaves of the shrub have been consumed where the plant is cultivated, primarily in East Africa and the Arabian peninsula. There, chewing khat predates the use of coffee and is used in a similar social context. It is estimated that over 10 million people use and abuse Khat today, primarily in the Middle East.
Khat is used for its stimulant effects. The effects are similar to but less intense than those of methamphetamine or cocaine. Fresh leaves are chewed and dried leaves are smoked, made into a paste and chewed, or brewed in tea. Used moderately, khat alleviates fatigue and reduces appetite. Long term use or abuse can cause insomnia, anorexia, gastric disorders, depression, liver damage and cardiac complications. Manic behavior, delusional behavior, violence, suicidal depression, hallucinations, paranoia and khat-induced psychosis have also been reported.
Khat contains a number of chemicals among which are two controlled substances, cathinone (Schedule I) and cathine (Schedule IV). As the leaves mature or dry, cathinone is converted to cathine which significantly reduces its stimulatory properties. Cathinone is approximately 10 more times more potent than cathine and is only present in fresh leaves.
Cathine, the secondary active ingredient in Khat, does not lose much of its potency with age as with cathinone. Leaves less than 48 hours old are preferred to ensure a maximum potency of cathinone. However, Khat can be preserved by freezing, the same way that vegetables and meats are kept fresh in the United States.
I matched the information found on that particular site to a few other sites so it is rather accurate.
If you take a chunk (kinda large piece) of flesh out of somebody with a large caliber round (anything over a .308 should do) they tend to at least fall down and stay down...
What the **** ever happened to "ONE SHOT ONE KILL"?
BTW I'd love an M14.
sorry for the longish ranty thingy.
M14 FTW!
LOL, at "threats" I love that word so often thrown around but rarely in the right direction. As for whether it's an inferior weapon or not..hmm...it most definately IS. Look at how the weapon itself operates and tell me it's not inferior to it's contemporary counterparts..
PS Grenades are a weapon system we weren't taught controlled pairs on. As well as claymores, C4 charges, 249 SAW, 240B/240C, 25MM Bushmaster Chain Gun, .50 MG, Mark 19 Automatic Grenade Launcher, M203 Grenade Launcher, Javelin, TOW Missile, and the Military Issued Shotgun (for the breachman in all of us)
The only weapons which we are taught "controlled pairs" would be the M16(insert A variant here) and the 9MM.
PS Grenades are a weapon system we weren't taught controlled pairs on. As well as claymores, C4 charges, 249 SAW, 240B/240C, 25MM Bushmaster Chain Gun, .50 MG, Mark 19 Automatic Grenade Launcher, M203 Grenade Launcher, Javelin, TOW Missile, and the Military Issued Shotgun (for the breachman in all of us)
The only weapons which we are taught "controlled pairs" would be the M16(insert A variant here) and the 9MM.
Not upset man, it's all good on here, so don't worry about it, besides, from what I've seen in your other posts you're not a prick so that's why I figured you weren't trying to be one now.
Now for the reliability issues, one of the best ways I've seen it put is like this.
The Ljungman-type direct impingement gas system is simple and lightweight, but it blows hot gases, carbon fouling and unburned powder particles directly back into the weapon’s receiver. Not only does this require intensive maintenance, but heavy lubrication to keep the fouling soft and the rifle operating. In the hostile Iraq environment where dust the consistency of talcum powder gets into everything, the lubricant becomes a “dust magnet,” causing frequent stoppages (jams) – just what you need in a firefight! Both M16 and M4 weapons have this problem. Anyone who has ever cleaned an M16 or M4 remembers the caked on carbon fouling that must literally be scraped off the internal components of the bolt carrier assembly.
In the case of the M4, the gas problem is made even worse because the gas port has been moved back to within six inches or so of the upper receiver, meaning that gases entering the receiver are hotter and under higher pressure than those of the longer barreled M16. The hotter, higher pressure gases not only raise the operating temperature in the forward area of the upper receiver, but also in the magazine well area. Just as bad, the gases cause accelerated gas port erosion, further raising pressures and dumping even more hot gases into the upper receiver. Higher pressures cause timing issues, which results in the weapon unlocking before pressures in the barrel have dropped and while cartridge cases are still clinging to the chamber wall, blowing extractors, breaking bolts and stripping locking lugs.
Now for the reliability issues, one of the best ways I've seen it put is like this.
The Ljungman-type direct impingement gas system is simple and lightweight, but it blows hot gases, carbon fouling and unburned powder particles directly back into the weapon’s receiver. Not only does this require intensive maintenance, but heavy lubrication to keep the fouling soft and the rifle operating. In the hostile Iraq environment where dust the consistency of talcum powder gets into everything, the lubricant becomes a “dust magnet,” causing frequent stoppages (jams) – just what you need in a firefight! Both M16 and M4 weapons have this problem. Anyone who has ever cleaned an M16 or M4 remembers the caked on carbon fouling that must literally be scraped off the internal components of the bolt carrier assembly.
In the case of the M4, the gas problem is made even worse because the gas port has been moved back to within six inches or so of the upper receiver, meaning that gases entering the receiver are hotter and under higher pressure than those of the longer barreled M16. The hotter, higher pressure gases not only raise the operating temperature in the forward area of the upper receiver, but also in the magazine well area. Just as bad, the gases cause accelerated gas port erosion, further raising pressures and dumping even more hot gases into the upper receiver. Higher pressures cause timing issues, which results in the weapon unlocking before pressures in the barrel have dropped and while cartridge cases are still clinging to the chamber wall, blowing extractors, breaking bolts and stripping locking lugs.
Bordsnbikes
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I know they are heavy on the cleaning, but you keep it clean and it runs like a raped ape. I never once had a stoppage on my rifle while in Iraq, we fully stripped and cleaned them 1 to 2 times a day though. I knew that much about them but guess I didn't see it as inferior, I do see where your coming from though. Like they said, it's seen as the norm. What assualt rifle do you prefer to the M4/16 family. What I wanted while I was over there was one chambered for .308, but because they were adapted from one desinged for .223 they have runability issues. I also wanted an M79, it's a stand alone grenade launcher like they used in Vietnam. The armorer was a good friend of mine and he was wheeling and dealing, but they just don't exist in arms rooms anymore. The P415 seems very promising though. I'm gonna look into that for my personal weapon.
I think I'm in love...
http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/P-415-16-P12SX-CF-223-RECON.htm
Everyone else seems to think I'm a prick, I think you just understand the Armyness in me.
Troyford, thanks Christmas story haha.
I think I'm in love...
http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/P-415-16-P12SX-CF-223-RECON.htm
Everyone else seems to think I'm a prick, I think you just understand the Armyness in me.
Troyford, thanks Christmas story haha.
The way I am at work and on here as well, if you're ****** up/wrong/off/etc... I'll tell you, doesn't mean I don't like ya, just that I had to correct you/give my opinion. I see that in you as well and that is why I understand it.
That what ya meant ny Armyness?
That what ya meant ny Armyness?
GatorBuell
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I think you guys are missing the point of the 5.56 round. Years ago when the 5.56 round was introduced into the U.S. doctrine the basis of the round was a high velocity flat trajectory round that can carry its energy down range. The larger 30 caliber rounds start losing energy and at a certain point the trajectory just falls off. The military took long range accuracy over knock down power. The second point is the 5.56 round is not made to kill only to remove the combatant from the fight. A injured solider is hard to take care of and demoralizes a army as a dead solider requires very little support ie. medical, and removal from the battle field. Much like the Military's decision not to put machineguns on the F4 Phantoms during Vietnam. The 5.56 was thought to be used in a conventional war fare against a convectional army (Russia, China) and much like the F4 mistake (the thought was it was going to be a long range missile fight no need for guns) the 5.56 falls short for actual combat use. The cost to change would be too much for the military right now and the military is waiting on the next platform to take its place. I say a 155 grain 7.62 super short round.
Bordsnbikes
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Yes that's pretty much what I meant by Armyness.
I don't think it has the long range though. 600 meters is about the max and that's only is your REAL good. I know about the theory behind shooting one guy and it taking two to move him. Your right, it's just not suited to this war which is what I was saying about not being realistic to change weapons for each war. The M14 is making it's comeback like that article FIDO linked to says. They reach out better because the .308 has more range than .223. I was SDM (squad designated marksman) and we got them issued to us as a second weapon. The M4 was awesome for room clearing and then when we needed a long range shot and didn't have snipers handy the SDM would step up. So basically just a low end sniper with not nearly the training. I did almost make it on the sniper team but the other guy could read windage better than I can.
What do you mean by super short round? Go to 7.62x39 instead of 7.62x51?
I don't think it has the long range though. 600 meters is about the max and that's only is your REAL good. I know about the theory behind shooting one guy and it taking two to move him. Your right, it's just not suited to this war which is what I was saying about not being realistic to change weapons for each war. The M14 is making it's comeback like that article FIDO linked to says. They reach out better because the .308 has more range than .223. I was SDM (squad designated marksman) and we got them issued to us as a second weapon. The M4 was awesome for room clearing and then when we needed a long range shot and didn't have snipers handy the SDM would step up. So basically just a low end sniper with not nearly the training. I did almost make it on the sniper team but the other guy could read windage better than I can.
What do you mean by super short round? Go to 7.62x39 instead of 7.62x51?
GatorBuell
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The new ballistics of hunting rounds like the 7mm, 300 win mag and the .270 in the shorts are getting much flatter trajectories and constantly more accurate. The shell cases are much shorter making the burn time of the powder in the case shorter giving it more muzzle velocity with the same or smaller powder load.
Link
I was a 5th award expert in rifle and twice in pistol in the Marines and went to Primary Marksmanship Instructor school and spent 8 months as a Instructor for my Battalion. I was invited to try out for the Marine Corps Marksmanship team but due to deployments and my EAS I never made it to a tryout. My friend who went to PMI school with me got to try out but did not make it. I think he was a better shot than me any way so I dont feel I missed my chance.
Link
I was a 5th award expert in rifle and twice in pistol in the Marines and went to Primary Marksmanship Instructor school and spent 8 months as a Instructor for my Battalion. I was invited to try out for the Marine Corps Marksmanship team but due to deployments and my EAS I never made it to a tryout. My friend who went to PMI school with me got to try out but did not make it. I think he was a better shot than me any way so I dont feel I missed my chance.
Bordsnbikes
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So it's exploding in a smaller hole making more pressure and thus faster. That makes sense. So are you saying put the 155 grains from a 7.62x51 into a 7.62x39 or something to that effect? And that would create a faster and more accurate round. What kind of weapon system do you prefer?
GatorBuell
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Kinda, what happens is when a rifle recoils it make a small circle as the bullet travels down the barrel. Its where that barrel is when the bullet exits in the rotation that your looking at in your sight alignment and sight pitcher. If that bullet exits at different points of that rotation will change your minute of angle causing a inconstant shot group. Now the short rounds like the Winchester short magnums the powder burns faster because all the powder is closer to the primer in the short case than in the longer cases. Think of it like if you had a wick that is long and skinny and a wick that was short and fat but both have the same amount of energy to expend what wick would be finished burning first. The short fat one because it has less ground to cover as it will burn horizontally and vertically faster than the long one can burn vertically. The energy is applied much faster to the bullet making it a more constant timing of the bullet exiting the barrel during that rotation. Your reducing the amount of burn time of the powder. It also uses the powder more efficiently giving more energy to the bullet faster giving it a flat trajectory. The major draw back is the recoil is a bit more and could cause a shooter to flinch, buck or anticipate the shot causing poor shot placement and grouping.
M14 is my fav. Despite the criticism I do like the M16 because I have shot so many rounds threw it that I can acquire a target and squeeze a round almost second nature. I carried a M249 for a few years, that was a fun weapon. Mk19 brings a smile to my face.
M14 is my fav. Despite the criticism I do like the M16 because I have shot so many rounds threw it that I can acquire a target and squeeze a round almost second nature. I carried a M249 for a few years, that was a fun weapon. Mk19 brings a smile to my face.
Bordsnbikes
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Yes, I LOVE the mk19! I was a VC for a bit in Iraq when someone was on R&R. I cock blocked our sniper with the mk19. He had some guys lined up and I started raining in rounds.
I rocked the SAW for about a year as a private that was a blast.
Maybe that's why I like the M4 so much because I have put zillions of rounds through it.
Thanks for the insight, anymore knowledge you'd like to pass along I'd love to hear it.
I rocked the SAW for about a year as a private that was a blast.
Maybe that's why I like the M4 so much because I have put zillions of rounds through it.
Thanks for the insight, anymore knowledge you'd like to pass along I'd love to hear it.
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