Make sure you get rid of the piggyback tuner.
All of those other questions will be better answered by Dave at Buelltooth.
MAP/Baro sensor on XB Mod help
- Thread starter npetra
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Make sure you get rid of the piggyback tuner.
All of those other questions will be better answered by Dave at Buelltooth.
1) All Buell ECM's are jailbroken now, including your IDS ECM. You must use the fuel map file that matches the firmware version it's running. Probably BUE2D, but check it first with ECMDroid.
2) The fuel map that Buelltooth offers for their Baro kit is a OPEN LOOP tune ONLY. It makes you fuel injection system work exactly like a OG carburetor. Your ECM will now ignore the O2 sensor and not be able to adjust itself to get the proper output. That is why you need to add the Baro sensor when you turn off the O2. Works fine (speed density tune) as long as the program is written perfectly and the bike is in perfect running condition. No small intake seal leak, clogged injectors, bad gas, etc...
Also, your bike will also no longer be able to tell you if somethings wrong. If you are way to lean, it won't know, won't turn on the CEL, or adjust the AFV as a diagnostic clue. You will only know when you smoke a piston.
In normal Closed Loop operation, the ECM reads the signal from the O2 sensor several times a second, thats also how it adjusts for altitude without a Baro sensor in stock form. Even though it takes several readings before making an adjustment there is NO WAY you are going up or down in altitude fast enough that it cannot adjust for elevation fast enough.
3) The EEPROM, fuel map, .XPR file, etc IS the tune. No "base tune" that needs anything else. There are ECM parameters you can change such as fan temps, O2 voltages, AFV, but the Map is the Map.
The guys at Buelltooth are very helpful and theres loads of instructions on their site. I don't think you'll need them to hold your hand with a live phone call while you do this. It's easy! Pay attention to each step.
You don't need a cable for this. You are confusing ECMSpy and TunerPro (that you can build a completely custom tune yourself) with the free program ECMDroid. Theres no need for a custom tune unless you are doing something way radical like putting on a turbo, or adding a 1275CC kit.
You can't use a cable with ECMDroid. It uses a Bluetooth connection to your laptop. Thats what the Buelltooth is. It is a Bluetooth dongle attached to the Buell ECM to allow the program ECMDroid in your laptop to connect with your Buell ECM wirelessly.
Want some unsolicited advise? No? Ok but here it is anyway
Have some fun messing around. You can always go back BUT:
1) SAVE YOUR IDS FILE BEFORE YOU MESS WITH ANYTHING. It's the best thing for your bike so I get the feeling you'll want it later.
2) Toss the piggyback junk. You might get lucky when using it in conjunction with a stock (lean) tune, BUT it will only complicate what the custom IDS ECM is trying to do. The piggyback stuff has been around since OBD 1in the 90's and modify the stock O2 signal to trick the ECM into adding some fuel. When the good IDS tune you have does that already, theres no 'improvement' a thing like that could make. Even worse...once you turn off the O2 by using an Open Loop tune the ECM won't even see the signal that thing is giving it.
The IDS tune you have now is the best. If you are having running issues I would suggest fixing the bike first, before you go tweaking things and masking a problem that could end up damaging your bike. Check the AFV before you change anything. Whats the ECM trying to do? Thats a clue that everything OK, or theres an issue.
And the 'return' key is on the right side of your keyboard, it parses subjects into paragraphs and makes reading much easier:angel:
TL;DR
Leave the ECM alone, toss the piggyback, and check for mechanical issues
2) The fuel map that Buelltooth offers for their Baro kit is a OPEN LOOP tune ONLY. It makes you fuel injection system work exactly like a OG carburetor. Your ECM will now ignore the O2 sensor and not be able to adjust itself to get the proper output. That is why you need to add the Baro sensor when you turn off the O2. Works fine (speed density tune) as long as the program is written perfectly and the bike is in perfect running condition. No small intake seal leak, clogged injectors, bad gas, etc...
Also, your bike will also no longer be able to tell you if somethings wrong. If you are way to lean, it won't know, won't turn on the CEL, or adjust the AFV as a diagnostic clue. You will only know when you smoke a piston.
In normal Closed Loop operation, the ECM reads the signal from the O2 sensor several times a second, thats also how it adjusts for altitude without a Baro sensor in stock form. Even though it takes several readings before making an adjustment there is NO WAY you are going up or down in altitude fast enough that it cannot adjust for elevation fast enough.
3) The EEPROM, fuel map, .XPR file, etc IS the tune. No "base tune" that needs anything else. There are ECM parameters you can change such as fan temps, O2 voltages, AFV, but the Map is the Map.
The guys at Buelltooth are very helpful and theres loads of instructions on their site. I don't think you'll need them to hold your hand with a live phone call while you do this. It's easy! Pay attention to each step.
You don't need a cable for this. You are confusing ECMSpy and TunerPro (that you can build a completely custom tune yourself) with the free program ECMDroid. Theres no need for a custom tune unless you are doing something way radical like putting on a turbo, or adding a 1275CC kit.
You can't use a cable with ECMDroid. It uses a Bluetooth connection to your laptop. Thats what the Buelltooth is. It is a Bluetooth dongle attached to the Buell ECM to allow the program ECMDroid in your laptop to connect with your Buell ECM wirelessly.
Want some unsolicited advise? No? Ok but here it is anyway
Have some fun messing around. You can always go back BUT:
1) SAVE YOUR IDS FILE BEFORE YOU MESS WITH ANYTHING. It's the best thing for your bike so I get the feeling you'll want it later.
2) Toss the piggyback junk. You might get lucky when using it in conjunction with a stock (lean) tune, BUT it will only complicate what the custom IDS ECM is trying to do. The piggyback stuff has been around since OBD 1in the 90's and modify the stock O2 signal to trick the ECM into adding some fuel. When the good IDS tune you have does that already, theres no 'improvement' a thing like that could make. Even worse...once you turn off the O2 by using an Open Loop tune the ECM won't even see the signal that thing is giving it.
The IDS tune you have now is the best. If you are having running issues I would suggest fixing the bike first, before you go tweaking things and masking a problem that could end up damaging your bike. Check the AFV before you change anything. Whats the ECM trying to do? Thats a clue that everything OK, or theres an issue.
And the 'return' key is on the right side of your keyboard, it parses subjects into paragraphs and makes reading much easier:angel:
TL;DR
Leave the ECM alone, toss the piggyback, and check for mechanical issues
Maybe things changed recently with the Baro sensor as it has 3 options...the first one allows you to keep the 02 sensor settings stock with the addition of the baro compensation. This way you still have closed loop function with baro sensing that provides constantand more accurate adjustment for altitude change where ultimately I am looking to benefit from. The reason why I am using the piggyback tuner is that IDS could not supplier a good enough AFR to match my muffler combination (custom X Pipe internally with 2 1/2 dual outlets and still utilizing the exhaust valve for low end) ....Ran several dynos and it was in the 14-15's at WOT. Put the piggyback on it and it was in the high 12's and low 13's....and at cruise got it dialed in 14-15....I read that a lot of Buell owners dislike the piggyback system but I have been running it since March and its been flawless other than my front fuel injector going bad recently (stuck wide open).
However, I am thinking about taking my stock ECM and doing the downloading for the bar sensor itself and then tweeking the fuel map provided. Then see if I can get it running good with out the piggyback..I like your idea!...worst case go back to what I had....Thanks,
Thats some good new info:eagerness:
You're right that most Buellers don't like the piggyback stuff, but only because they are rudimentary and frankly unnecessary. Why use a piggyback hammer when you can modify the Buell ECM with a scalpel (for free even)? It wouldn't cause a stuck injector though, that's just an anomaly.
I don't know why any aftermarket tune would be that lean WOT?? Wrong tune? Intake leak? Lazy O2? That will be hard to diagnose with the added manipulation from the piggy back unit. You would need to remove it just for diagnosis whether it currently enrichens the bike or not, it is masking an issue that you definitely have.
There is the stock (EPA) tune that is lean (and sucks lol), and there is all other aftermarket pipes that are within about 2% of each other. See Deans (Keda design) dyno sheet for proof. Unless your home-made pipe is a miracle of flow dynamics, I'd say there a problem.
Post up those dyno sheets, maybe we can see something you missed?
You can get well past "the high 12's and low 13's..." for power tuning at WOT. You'll like the extra power with even more fuel. Stock Buell injectors are plenty big enough to compensate for intake and exhaust mods without goin all '255'.
Good to know that Buelltooth offers a Baro and still keep it CL:up: They really work hard for us Since Baro and AFV are both global modifiers they would work together, but the end result would (should) be exactly the same as just the O2 (AFV) modifier. Thats probably why OE felt it unnecessary in this mild HP application. YMMV. *But note that the 146hp Rotax 1125's use Baro sensors in 2008-up bikes. The ECM looks at both sensors at the same rate, but OE has the Baro setting applied faster. Maybe thats what they mean by a faster adjustment? How fast are you really going up and down in elevation?
You're right that most Buellers don't like the piggyback stuff, but only because they are rudimentary and frankly unnecessary. Why use a piggyback hammer when you can modify the Buell ECM with a scalpel (for free even)? It wouldn't cause a stuck injector though, that's just an anomaly.
I don't know why any aftermarket tune would be that lean WOT?? Wrong tune? Intake leak? Lazy O2? That will be hard to diagnose with the added manipulation from the piggy back unit. You would need to remove it just for diagnosis whether it currently enrichens the bike or not, it is masking an issue that you definitely have.
There is the stock (EPA) tune that is lean (and sucks lol), and there is all other aftermarket pipes that are within about 2% of each other. See Deans (Keda design) dyno sheet for proof. Unless your home-made pipe is a miracle of flow dynamics, I'd say there a problem.
Post up those dyno sheets, maybe we can see something you missed?
You can get well past "the high 12's and low 13's..." for power tuning at WOT. You'll like the extra power with even more fuel. Stock Buell injectors are plenty big enough to compensate for intake and exhaust mods without goin all '255'.
Good to know that Buelltooth offers a Baro and still keep it CL:up: They really work hard for us
Since Baro and AFV are both global modifiers they would work together, but the end result would (should) be exactly the same as just the O2 (AFV) modifier. Thats probably why OE felt it unnecessary in this mild HP application. YMMV. *But note that the 146hp Rotax 1125's use Baro sensors in 2008-up bikes. The ECM looks at both sensors at the same rate, but OE has the Baro setting applied faster. Maybe thats what they mean by a faster adjustment? How fast are you really going up and down in elevation?I know the bike has no mechanical problems because when I had the stock muffler originally with the IDS tune it ran great. I just did not like whisper quiet sound, so I modified another muffler that sounds really good. I know it runs strong because I run neck to neck with my buddies moto Guzzi that puts out 110 hp. Its just that my muffler really flows good. See attachment that shows muffler before assembly....View attachment 12715. Once I get the new injectors installed (replacing in pairs), i am going to purchase Buelltooth and install the Baro sensor kit. Then try and download the micron map as I believe that will be the nearest map to my muffler and then try to attempt data logging...However, since I don't have an Android I am going to attempt to purchase a kindle to do my data logging. Do you think thats my best option? New to this whole buelltooth thing as I am use to using either my Power Vision or OTC Scanner...Thanks,
I would suggest getting an Android burner phone to datalog. It's fits in your pocket much better and a kindle takes some tweaking to use this way. They range from $35 at the mall, to free, from a buddies junk drawer or your current cell phone provider when you re-up. You don't need a SIM card or phone number for it.
Ahhhhh. Jr. Tech. Makes sense now. What dealer do you work at? Graduate UTI?
started out as a tech at a Ford Dealer, Graduated from Cal State LA, Automotive Technology, Cat Dealer as a Technical Communicator, Service Mgr, Director over 7 dealers parts/service, Owned my own auto shop....etc...Always been a gear head but geared more towards automotive...Motorcycles not as much...
I knew IT! Awesome. You'll have fun messing with this ol' girl.
Still in Cali?
Still in Cali?
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Weather is great, too bad the state itself sucks.
- Joined
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Yer probably right
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