DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor

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Really not sure how to do it. Dont feel confortable by just adding 20% blindly. If you analyze the stock maps you see this relationship doesnt hold. There are parts of the stock map in which rear cylinder is richer than fronts and other the contrary is true.

Yes I whole hardily agree this is NOT the way to do it, I was under the impression you were only going to stick it in the rear cylinder and go from there so I too wondered what you planned to do about the front. I was urging you to do both cylinders.

Tought about tuning one cylinder at a time so that I'd need to buy only one WB kit. Is this a OK solution in your opinion?
Yes one at a time dataloging AFR's and tuning the map for that cylinder to your target AFR, then move to the other cylinder and do the same procedure to match the same target AFR. Does your bike already have front and rear 02 bungs?
 
How to figure out ideal AFR's:

Lets make a hypothetical to work with, stock celled map in open loop / bike only running K&N air filter for mods. (this is your setup correct?)

1.) Now lets work with front cylinder first and shoot for a steady target 13.5-1 AFR in the open loop cells to begin with. Datalog 3rd gear pull on predetermined stretch of road (pick a landmark to start from and start there every time) now hold a steady WOT 2K to rev limit from that start point. Come back and edit cells off of that datalog and repeat the procedure until your datalog is rock steady to the 13.5 AFR for the front.

2.) Time to switch the wide band to the rear and do the same exact steps for a steady 13.5 AFR rear. All good now? Time to go to that same stretch of road you've been using so we can tune for ideal AFR.

3.) With that map hitting our predetermined target AFR of 13.5 front and rear, make 4 or 5 maps adding 1% to 2% more fuel than the last across open loop cells.

4.) Datalog 3rd gear pull on predetermined stretch of road (pick a landmark to start from and start there every time) now hold a steady WOT 2K to rev limit from that start point. do it 5 times same exact pull and same landmark. Overlay data and pull the average

5.) Do the same procedure as step 4 with each map created in step 3.

6.) Overlay averages with time from 2K to rev limit, shortest time it takes wins.

At this point is where I'd call it good but keep in mind you "could" make more power with a different AFR from front to rear. Lets say your richest map has a value of 12.8 AFR and your shortest time on data overlay (step 6) was a 13.1 AFR. You would do steps 3 - 6 again only pulling or adding fuel one cylinder at a time. This would be like splitting hairs on a 90hp engine and VERY time consuming, not worth it IMO

This also doesn't take into account timing adjustments.
 
lowkey;582971 Yes one at a time dataloging AFR's and tuning the map for that cylinder to your target AFR said:
No, I'd have to have the front pipe welded a bung. Only 2010 bikes have two bungs.
 
Interesting! Would like to hear more on the how and why on this...

Is it a consistent value across the cells or all over the place? By how much percentage would you say?

Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

Datalog.jpg
 
Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

View attachment 6585

Hopefully someone with experience with this software can interpret the data for us with a clearer understanding of what is going on.

mcaff forgive me as I'm not trying to discourage you from your project but with only a K&N filter I don't fully understand your goal?

Lets say instead of your motorcycle this is a current stock mustang GT with only a K&N drop in filter, who would bother tuning this? Aside from K&N for drop in filter sales that is?
 
It's a correction percentage, just like AFV. 110 is adding 10% more fuel. 90 is 10% less fuel.

Stock tunes are generic for all regions of the USA. Tuning for your conditions/elevation will always be worth it, even 100% stock.
 
It's a correction percentage, just like AFV. 110 is adding 10% more fuel. 90 is 10% less fuel.
understood, but the HOW it is coming up with these values for open loop on narrow band sensor data is what I'd like to know.


Stock tunes are generic for all regions of the USA. Tuning for your conditions/elevation will always be worth it, even 100% stock.
True, but he are already dialed in closed loop... I guess our definition of "worth it" is different.

I'd say if he added fuel at a 1% to 2% rate to his open loop and data-logged until the 2k to to redline times stopped dropping he would get the same outcome although he wouldn't know the actual AFR.
 
Hopefully someone with experience with this software can interpret the data for us with a clearer understanding of what is going on.

mcaff forgive me as I'm not trying to discourage you from your project but with only a K&N filter I don't fully understand your goal?

Lets say instead of your motorcycle this is a current stock mustang GT with only a K&N drop in filter, who would bother tuning this? Aside from K&N for drop in filter sales that is?

Well yes my bike has a K&N filter and the exhaust valve is locked open and that´s it.
Sincerely I wouldn´t like to waste my time tuning it if its stock performance was good. But talking to several people here in Brazil they were unanimous saying remapping with a wideband made the bike run a lot better. I´m not sure but maybe the fact I run the exhaust wide open made the ECM run above its optimal level let´s say. I bought the bike this way, as the valve actuator got broken with the previous owner, so I never ran it 100% stock.
 
Well yes my bike has a K&N filter and the exhaust valve is locked open and that´s it.
Sincerely I wouldn´t like to waste my time tuning it if its stock performance was good. But talking to several people here in Brazil they were unanimous saying remapping with a wideband made the bike run a lot better. I´m not sure but maybe the fact I run the exhaust wide open made the ECM run above its optimal level let´s say. I bought the bike this way, as the valve actuator got broken with the previous owner, so I never ran it 100% stock.

...ECM run BELOW, not above...
 
Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

View attachment 6585

Ok mcaff found this info:

"Gego - Gego is short for 'Gamma - Exhaust Gas Oxygen'. It is the change applied to the fuelling equation based on the EGO O2 sensor feedback. This feedback can (and is) done in a number of different ways, depending on the type of sensor, etc. The important thing is that this is a result of an external measurement, not a pure calculation, so it appears a bit mysteriously in the equation."
Taken from here http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/glossary.htm

and this

"VE Analysis FAQ:

Do I need to disable Gego for VE Analysis? - Gego is factored into the VE Analysis formula. Say the current table VE value for a single calculation is 50 and Gego is 110, 55 will be used as the actual VE value. If Analysis determines that it was lean for that record, the 55 value will be increased accordingly and added as a weighted recommendation. So by running with Gego on, you benefit by having both the ECM learned correction and the current O2 to use as input for correcting the table, instead of just the current O2 output. Having both is better, especially with a NB O2 sensor. So while I would recommend leaving Gego on with either a WB or NB sensor, I highly recommend leaving it on for a NB.

Taken from here https://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/veAnalysisFAQ.html

So although the first quote is vague on the HOW the info is calculated it does shed some light on the subject. The second quote is showing us how to interpret the data to adjust the fuel maps accordingly.
 
There is something I´d like to share with you...take a look at this:

o2.jpg

In the stock eeprom, lean O2 voltage is set at 0.415v while rich is set at 0.562. They´re one the white fields.
Lines below the stock calibration (gray) are from a tuned map I received from a "tuner" I got to know here in Brazil. I tried to understand why he does this but nothing came to my mind. The rich voltage I think I understand...the o2 sensor signal has to be higher than stock for the ECM to understand mixture is rich and apply a correction.
Have you ever seen this kind of tuning on Buells? Does this make the ECM run richer than stoich!? It seems too easy to be true to me...
 
No, that won't make it run richer widening the voltage from lean to rich will just slow the "bounce" between lean/rich. What it will do is make the 02 reading less effective and subsequent ECU self adjusting much less effective.

The bounce that I refer to is how a narrow band is supposed to work reading constantly from lean to rich when the cells are just right it will evenly go back and forth and AFV will be dialed at 100%.

Here is a more in depth explanation:

"How does the O2 sensor measure the fuel mixture?

An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust system and air outside the engine. A Zirconium stabilized yttrium oxide ceramic shell is coated with a layer of platinum. When the nose is heated the platinum will begin to react with the exhaust gasses and a voltage potential will form between the inner and outer layers. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. This voltage output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. A rich mixture leave very little free oxygen and the reaction will send out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor will not spend any time at 0.45 volts. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, this comparison is not possible. Also if the exhaust side of the sensor has been contaminated by using leaded fuels or gasket sealers which are not specifically identified as being approved for use with oxygen sensors the sensor can be permanently damaged."

taken from here http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2665.html

Think about what the tuner has done like this:

If stock 02 values were two tennis players this would be on a regular court

If the tuners values are used the two tennis players are now standing twice as far from the net then they would before so the ball has to travel much further between the two players.

Does that make sense to you?

If you have tuned your closed loop with his values, you have most likely cheated the ECU's adjustment ability... and yes, I realize his values are closer to what was quoted BUT they both cross the .45, just one tighter than the other. I'm sure Buell did this for a reason... I would ask him why he has done this and how he came up with this, also what is this supposed to achieve according to him?

At this point everything is now an unknown because I was unaware you had drivability/running issues. I thought you were after tuning above and beyond the stock map. Are you in possession of a known stock map? One that for sure has not been messed with?
 
Last edited:
Thank you both for a in depth explanation of the basics. I'll be watching this thread and maybe even chime in if I actually have something valuable to say:black_eyed:


I'm currently custom tuning a new set up on my STT and went with the innovate WB with both O2 sensors after I welded a bung in a doner header. I never heard what AZ said about a bad narrow band output from the Innovate system before? I wonder if it was just an anomaly that someone passed around as a 'true fact about all of them'? That stuff happens a lot...

I'll see if I can lay the NB output next to the WB reading and see if the voltage switches predictably. Should be super easy to see if they correlate.
I tuned a 1967 Big Block Chevy with the system when I built a port fuel injection system for it and had no issues there, even though there was no stock ECM to trick with a NB O2 sensor.
 
No, that won't make it run richer widening the voltage from lean to rich will just slow the "bounce" between lean/rich. What it will do is make the 02 reading less effective and subsequent ECU self adjusting much less effective.

The bounce that I refer to is how a narrow band is supposed to work reading constantly from lean to rich when the cells are just right it will evenly go back and forth and AFV will be dialed at 100%.

Here is a more in depth explanation:

"How does the O2 sensor measure the fuel mixture?

An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust system and air outside the engine. A Zirconium stabilized yttrium oxide ceramic shell is coated with a layer of platinum. When the nose is heated the platinum will begin to react with the exhaust gasses and a voltage potential will form between the inner and outer layers. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. This voltage output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. A rich mixture leave very little free oxygen and the reaction will send out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor will not spend any time at 0.45 volts. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, this comparison is not possible. Also if the exhaust side of the sensor has been contaminated by using leaded fuels or gasket sealers which are not specifically identified as being approved for use with oxygen sensors the sensor can be permanently damaged."

taken from here http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2665.html

Think about what the tuner has done like this:

If stock 02 values were two tennis players this would be on a regular court

If the tuners values are used the two tennis players are now standing twice as far from the net then they would before so the ball has to travel much further between the two players.

Does that make sense to you?

If you have tuned your closed loop with his values, you have most likely cheated the ECU's adjustment ability... and yes, I realize his values are closer to what was quoted BUT they both cross the .45, just one tighter than the other. I'm sure Buell did this for a reason... I would ask him why he has done this and how he came up with this, also what is this supposed to achieve according to him?

At this point everything is now an unknown because I was unaware you had drivability/running issues. I thought you were after tuning above and beyond the stock map. Are you in possession of a known stock map? One that for sure has not been messed with?

Very rich information the ones you're quoting here!

I'll get in touch with this guy next week and ask him about why he has done this. But just for you to know, this is not the eeprom file I am tuning. It is just an old calibration I found and wanted to share.

I am sure the maps I burnt to my ECM recently were stock calibration made for brazilian bikes. I ran them for a couple of days, made a good datalog session and tuned closed loop with ECMSpy. And yesterday I dataloged again while the bike was running the map that had been tuned that previous session.
 
Thank you both for a in depth explanation of the basics. I'll be watching this thread and maybe even chime in if I actually have something valuable to say:black_eyed:


I'm currently custom tuning a new set up on my STT and went with the innovate WB with both O2 sensors after I welded a bung in a doner header. I never heard what AZ said about a bad narrow band output from the Innovate system before? I wonder if it was just an anomaly that someone passed around as a 'true fact about all of them'? That stuff happens a lot...

I'll see if I can lay the NB output next to the WB reading and see if the voltage switches predictably. Should be super easy to see if they correlate.
I tuned a 1967 Big Block Chevy with the system when I built a port fuel injection system for it and had no issues there, even though there was no stock ECM to trick with a NB O2 sensor.

Cooter hello and welcome to the thread.
Tell me something I dont know: to have 2 wideband running simultaneously did you have to buy 2 controllers? Or it is just a matter of buying two sensors and connecting both to the same controller and after to the ECM?
 
There is something I´d like to share with you...take a look at this:

View attachment 6586

In the stock eeprom, lean O2 voltage is set at 0.415v while rich is set at 0.562. They´re one the white fields.
Lines below the stock calibration (gray) are from a tuned map I received from a "tuner" I got to know here in Brazil. I tried to understand why he does this but nothing came to my mind. The rich voltage I think I understand...the o2 sensor signal has to be higher than stock for the ECM to understand mixture is rich and apply a correction.
Have you ever seen this kind of tuning on Buells? Does this make the ECM run richer than stoich!? It seems too easy to be true to me...

I reas somewhere that the midpoint on the o2 sensor is something very relevant. The stock calibration puts the mid point at 0.4885v and the tuner lowered it to 0.47v, which is the average of rich and lean voltages. But the point on doing this I dont know yet.
 
Lowkey, outside of closed loop, the narrowband O2 is still reading, so it uses those values. We all agree narrow band sucks, I'm just saying it is possible to use one.

Mcaff, you either need 2 controllers, or a controller that accepts 2 sensors.

Copter, I haven't personally tried the innovate yet, just what I have heard, and I forget what the problem even is. I will try it, since I only have innovate wide bands.

Ok, did some digging up of the innovate issue.

"Some WB sensors cannot deliver enough current to maintain the output voltage when
connected to a Buell ECM due to the low input impedance of the ECM. In simple terms,
the ECM will measure the AFR erroneously. The Innovate LC-1 suffers from this issue,
whereas the Tech-Edge is reported not to."

http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?18307-wideband-options-please-advise
 
Mcaff: Thanks:) My controller accepts 2 sensors and the single gauge has 2 displays.

AZ: I saw that thread a while ago, but didn't worry when Theoctopus replied:

"Looks like it [Innovate] would work fine.

The LC-1 [4.2 sensors] gets close enough for normal use, but it's up to you if you want to spend the extra money on a 4.9 controller."

Now I'm curious which O2 sensors I have! The kit is pretty new, I wonder if they changed what O2 sensors they supply since that thread is from 2011.
 
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