Man these kits kits from Daytona are sensibly more expensive than those from Innovate. The Lc-2 kit with one additional Bosch sensor would cost me something around 220-240 usd. Why does this one you got goes to almost 500? Maybe because of the gauge?
DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor
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Man these kits kits from Daytona are sensibly more expensive than those from Innovate. The Lc-2 kit with one additional Bosch sensor would cost me something around 220-240 usd. Why does this one you got goes to almost 500? Maybe because of the gauge?
lowkey
Well-known member
Been researching like crazy on my end!
This is the first I've heard of that? Everything I've seen from around 2009 era says to go that route with no mention of the data needing a change for 02 correction. So were you using megalog previously and switched to something else? If you look at the knowledgable players from the older threads this was the way they were doing it for sure, then later dated threads they replied with one liners saying to use ECMspy mono to set up the fuel maps using the "dynamic" feature.
ECMspy mono tuning guide, check the section for "dynamic maps".http://www.ecmspy.com/ug_mono/V1.1/userguide_mono.shtml#tuning
As for logs, older threads say the data recorded using TunerproRT is second to none. I wonder if getting logs with ECMdroid is getting the same amount of data? I also wonder if ECMspy mono is capturing more data than the old version and that it can make use of that data with "dynamic maps".
I've had Tunerpro RT for a while and it is all set up correctly, I had a more in depth look yesterday and it is amazing software compared to ecmspy (free version not mono). Having said that, there is no feature to take place of MLV fuel map adjustments and getting the data to an from those two programs seems to be a major pain. If any of the perimeters are off the data is useless as well, making it much to problematic. There were excel files to make use of the data but all links/videos are now gone so it seems we missed out on the capability of these unless you are willing to put in a lot of time and math to replicate the now dead files. ECMspy Mono looks to be the way to do everything now all in one program, I'll link the tuning guide below that explains in detail.
This is the first I've heard of that? Everything I've seen from around 2009 era says to go that route with no mention of the data needing a change for 02 correction. So were you using megalog previously and switched to something else? If you look at the knowledgable players from the older threads this was the way they were doing it for sure, then later dated threads they replied with one liners saying to use ECMspy mono to set up the fuel maps using the "dynamic" feature.
ECMspy mono tuning guide, check the section for "dynamic maps".http://www.ecmspy.com/ug_mono/V1.1/userguide_mono.shtml#tuning
As for logs, older threads say the data recorded using TunerproRT is second to none. I wonder if getting logs with ECMdroid is getting the same amount of data? I also wonder if ECMspy mono is capturing more data than the old version and that it can make use of that data with "dynamic maps".
Man I' replying from the iPhone which doesnt give me much editing capabilities so I didnt quote you correctly.
But first things first:
- I have read an old thread in another forum in which Xopti says it is possible to use TunerPro datalog in MLV/Ecmspy and the other way around. He also taught how to do it but I couldnt make it work. Maybe softwares were different at that time, not sure. But what I really found easy to do is datalog with Ecmdroid and analyse it on Ecmspy for Mono, using the dynamic maps you mentioned.
- I stoped using MLV for two reasons. First is that the free version only uses the first 5.000 records of your log. If you make a rich 1 hour riding log it is useless with free version of MLV. Second because of the AFR table that to me is wrong. When I get acess to my notebook I'll send some screenshots to show what I mean. As far as I understand all the closed loop area must be tuned to 14.7 but VE analyzer doesnt match this for default. Yes it's possible to change VE analyzer tables but you cant save your changes so everytime you run the software you have to change the AFR table.
- Ecmspy dynamic maps is nothing different than TunerPro's historic tables. It is just a map with the same pattern of the fuel maps that gets populated by data from your riding/log. Say 4000 rpm 60 load your EGO avaraged 95% correction during your log, youll have the map whit this value there for you to see how much you must subtract on that cell of the fuel map. I think I already posted here a printscreen of this EGO dynamic map from Ecmspy, it is what I've been using lately for tuning.
And yes these logs capture a huge amount of data. MLV shows you everything that was captured while ECMspy shows only those they think are more relevant.
But first things first:
- I have read an old thread in another forum in which Xopti says it is possible to use TunerPro datalog in MLV/Ecmspy and the other way around. He also taught how to do it but I couldnt make it work. Maybe softwares were different at that time, not sure. But what I really found easy to do is datalog with Ecmdroid and analyse it on Ecmspy for Mono, using the dynamic maps you mentioned.
- I stoped using MLV for two reasons. First is that the free version only uses the first 5.000 records of your log. If you make a rich 1 hour riding log it is useless with free version of MLV. Second because of the AFR table that to me is wrong. When I get acess to my notebook I'll send some screenshots to show what I mean. As far as I understand all the closed loop area must be tuned to 14.7 but VE analyzer doesnt match this for default. Yes it's possible to change VE analyzer tables but you cant save your changes so everytime you run the software you have to change the AFR table.
- Ecmspy dynamic maps is nothing different than TunerPro's historic tables. It is just a map with the same pattern of the fuel maps that gets populated by data from your riding/log. Say 4000 rpm 60 load your EGO avaraged 95% correction during your log, youll have the map whit this value there for you to see how much you must subtract on that cell of the fuel map. I think I already posted here a printscreen of this EGO dynamic map from Ecmspy, it is what I've been using lately for tuning.
And yes these logs capture a huge amount of data. MLV shows you everything that was captured while ECMspy shows only those they think are more relevant.
Dual channel interface unit with 0-5V analog AFR outputs
I finally got through to innovate, I SPECIFICALLY asked that question, the answer was no, as applied to the DLG-1. If their tech support says it does not work (and if it actually does and they didn't know better) then I can't/won't support them. I don't mind paying a little more for something that I KNOW works, rather than risk wasting hard earned coin on my end.
I've used the MTX-L's before individually and they worked fine, I just wanted that single small gauge instead of 2. Also one of my other requirements was that the display be waterproof, they stated quite emphatically that none of their products were even remotely waterproof or resistant.
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lowkey
Well-known member
I am finding basically the same threads as you and the info seems to be outdated or needed conversion tables are nowhere to be found any more so I think using Mono Dynamic maps is the best option for tuning now. I wish there was more user threads on MONO like there is for the older software to minimize the learning curve, as of now I haven't come across any except the linked tuning guide.
As I understand it the maps should be set up as follows:
All fuel cells get adjusted for a target 14.7:1 AFR (across the entire map closed AND open loop)
When the ECU handles the switch over to open loop (not WOT) 5% of the value of each cell is added bringing AFR to 14.0:1 (You will see 105% value for open loop default correction in the tuning program, this can be adjusted if needed)
When the ECU parameters are met for WOT 10% of the cells value is added bringing AFR to 13.5:1 (You will see 110% value for WOT enrichment in the tuning program, this can be adjusted if needed)
This info was sourced from the tuning guide and explains the HOW we were wondering the ECU can make needed corrections without proper feedback from narrow band 02 in open loop.
I see a problem though that I haven't found an answer to yet, If you look at your maps you will see cell values of 255 (or almost 255) for fuel already and 255 is the maximum you can ask for! So is 5% open loop or 10% WOT really being added!?! The WOT enrichment value of 10% on top of a 255 cell would be asking for 280.5, I think not! Although I can't see Buell not leaving some head room on the fueling system considering they even offered the race filter/exhaust...
That is good news about being able to do the same with TunerProRT, I have not seen any threads where that has been done so I didn't know it would be possible. I guess I'll have to make a decision to go that route or just buy Mono and use it. Please share a link if you come across doing this with TunerProRT! Or can I just do the same procedure as the tuning guide states for MONO?
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You guys like to talk too much.
I made an excel sheet that takes the lambda maps of ecmspy mono and outputs a new corrected map, based off a afr map that you can define. Basically mlv but made for ecmspy. Let me know if any of you want it.
I made an excel sheet that takes the lambda maps of ecmspy mono and outputs a new corrected map, based off a afr map that you can define. Basically mlv but made for ecmspy. Let me know if any of you want it.
Dynamic EGO correction maps in EcmSpy is not just calculating an average, but they are based on data records only, which indicate proper CL operation and are also checked against a bunch of rules to avoid spoiling the results. The latest user's guide can be found here: http://www.ecmspy.com/ug_mono/V2.0/userguide_mono.shtml
Regarding WB O2: I haven't used them for years, as I found it easier and faster to look at the dynamic maps and the logs.
Yes I would like to take a look at it, if you dont mind please share with me.
By dual analog output you mean you can run both WBs feeding the ECM simultaneously?
Gunter sorry I didnt get what you mean.
Whats the relationship between dynamic maps and the band being WB or NB? You can run the stock NB or a WB you will anyway look at the dynamic map from the logs to tune. Going ahead, best of the worlds would be look at the dynamic maps while using a WB and not the stock NB.
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Sent.
If anyone else wants it message me. I would rather not post it publicly, so it doesn't end up in the hands of someone who doesn't understand what they are doing.
lowkey
Well-known member
Better late to the party then never right? I'll have a look at it, thanks!
Cole, why would this be a better alternative to using dynamic maps feature for ECMSpy Mono? Interested!
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This uses the dynamic maps :up:
Basically, this replaces MLV, but everything is shown how it makes corrections so there is no questioning the changes. This way, if there happens to be too large of a change you can ignore it. It is setup for lambda, but if you want to use the EGO or AFV maps, just change the target lambda map to all 1's.
Basically, this replaces MLV, but everything is shown how it makes corrections so there is no questioning the changes. This way, if there happens to be too large of a change you can ignore it. It is setup for lambda, but if you want to use the EGO or AFV maps, just change the target lambda map to all 1's.
WB is of no help when adjusting CL, as mixture in CL will be stoich anyway (this is the nature of CL). The goal is to limit EGO corrs to stop AFV from moving without change in altitude and air pressure.
Is it the same tuning closed loop with WB or NB? I am asking because I have done several datalogs trying to tune the CL using the stock NB and what I realized after so many attempts is that the EGO dynamic maps populated by the NB are not "accurate", let´s say. Sometimes my logs show I should enrichen fuel across almost all the cels. I do it and go out for a ride dataloging just to see after that now the EGO was taking away about the same amount of fuel I had just added.
I mean, for me sometimes it seems that tuning even the CL with the NB is like chasing the own tail...you just go round and round and it never gets good enough.
The other day I made a good logged ride and EGO maps was taking away fuel across the whole map. I applied the corrections and took it for a ride. It was crap, very lean in almost all points of the map and I saw EGO enrichening in about all the time I rode.
Just sharing my experience waiting for you to share yours and maybe I learn some more.
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That's why in my excel program I only make 1/3 of the change. Better to creep up on the changes, then once the change is minimal, or keeps going back and forth, you're good to go.
The problem with population the dynamic maps is to break down the EGO corr value, found in the runtime data record, on those (up to) four cells, where the current operating point lies, because it's still unknown how the ECM weights neighbour cells in the map. And it's impossible to compensate a 1% deviation if the cell value is below 100. When changing one cell, all it's 8 neighbours are impacted too. Therefore at some point the corrections start overshooting. No need to care for numbers, once the AFV is stable, CL is set up correctly.
What you mean by "stable"? Something between 95 and 105% lets say?! Or a AFV that doesnt keep changing all the time?
I never achieved this band, closer I got was about 95% but just for a couple of minutes riding around 4500rpm. When I slowed down riding inside the city it went down to 89% which made me believe mapping wasnt good.
For the last days I've been riding the stock calibration on it. It's pretty decent, until AFV starts taking fuel away (88% afv after a quick ride) and thus making open loop too lean. I really enjoied the idea of just leaving it stock, but it runs really bad, mainly around 4000-4500rpm and 125 load.
Just to share some news with you guys...while I don´t have the widebands, I am about to install the front boss and stick a stock NB sensor in it and wire it to the ECM. Will make it work like the 2010 models. Curious to see how it behaves with dual closed loops.
After when I get the WBs I already have the boss ready for it.
After when I get the WBs I already have the boss ready for it.
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I would be curious as to how you are turning on the front O2 sensor in the ECM. I'm sure I could Google it, but sounds like you already know what you're doing.
