Harley Davidson Strategy. As I see it.

[stopie20]

You guys are in an awfuly heated debate about nothing[down] [down].

Ghost and work - Do you both own Buells?
Do you both love riding them?
Would you both like to have the opportunity to purchase a new replacement for your Buell when your miles get a little high?

Then we agree, it is ******** that Harley made the cuts where they did, but these descisions are made by bankers NOT bikers therefore I am not capeable of comprehending the whys, you see I myself am not stupid I just see it from a bikers perspective and I am damn proud of that.

Harley has a long history of bad buisness descisons, I think in the long run this may prove to be another to add to that list (once again biker).

I'm just glad that Buell did exist and I am lucky enough to have one in my garage.

 

[taildraggin]

A new low in internet bickering:

...the matter is, I make six figures and live 7 blocks from the Beach in Southern California, you work is a crappy Harley dealership in Michigan.. You do the math. Nothing you can say could take anything away from me or make me feel bad.. sorry.

 

[93fee]

Ok, guys, so many words have been said, let me share my opinion. I'm from Moscow, Russia, so sorry much for mistakes in my english.

First of all, it's sad that all this Buell story is over. IMHO the only Buell is Lightning/Uly, 1125 looks like a mistake for me. Anyhow, Lightning is a great bike (I had xb9s my03 & now have 12stt) & it's sad that HD just stops production. Now I won't sell my stt whatever the price anybody offers ))) By the way, here in Moscow the cost for it was above 14 000$, even more than in Europe. So here it is absolutely exclusive, more than Ducati ))

About Eric Buell. For me it's interesting if he personnaly owns patents for all his technical innovations? If not it will be dmn hard for him to invent something new & build a completely new bike whatever will be it's name. In other hand, if he stays in HD they might try to start some new model lineup with more sportier models. Well, ok, as said above xr1200 is the only "sport" (as seen by HD) model. Maybe let them give a chance to build something new. I understand that the only "new" thing will be new side bags for dyna but lets hope for the best.

About HD service. Warranty is a big joke here in Russia, as soon as you can wait for spare for 2 months it's easier to forget all this warranty story. Sounds sad but true ((

Anyhow, I hope Eric will find an opportunity to build something new with all his engeneering skills & maybe not HD engine. Because aside this Buell-HD marriage/divorse, Eric's innovations are truly great. I still think that it's pretty hard to find naked/street bike on the market better than Lightning (and its alterations like Uly & Bolt). Buell's handling is absolutely great, breaks are perfect, belt drive is much better than chain story. Even HD engine gives this bike such a push you simply don't believe. As my friend once said - "is it diesel bike?" meaning that bike's torque at low rpm is making you grin behind your helmet's visor like no other bike.

Best wishes to you guys!
Fedor

 

[wokor2wheel]

I own a STT and a XL1200C that doen't breakdown! I don't have the true numbers to tell if shutting Buell down was the smartest thing to do. I'm sorry to see it go. But I would not could not Boycott Harley Davidson because of what they have done! That in its self would be selfish and childish. I for one have accepted it. So I will be happy selling the remaining Buell's we have at our nice little dealer in Mi. to people that hate to step foot in the Harley Davidson dealer and breath the same air as the HOGs. I will also enjoy talking to past Buell customers and helping them any way I can. I will also stay on this forum because there are a lot of great people that care about the product or life style of having a Buell.
Im sorry that this bitch and moan with Ghost got personal. To all those that have been following this "I apologize" That goes to you to Ghost!

 

[jimmy]

Im sorry that this bitch and moan with Ghost got personal. To all those that have been following this "I apologize" That goes to you to Ghost!

Now thats a stand up fella[up]

 

[fishgutz]

Now you can both zip up your pants. Agree to disagree.
If everyone agreed there would only be one brand, size and color of anything. And how boring a world would that be.

Let's start a whizzing contest on what looks cooler. Translucent Cherry Bomb air box or that opaque Carbon fiber air box.

Woohoo!

 

[ghost96b69]

Okey - that's a typical Harley dealership story and I've even heard the same from other Harley buyers. I don't know where you are but I'm in Southern Cali and it seems to me that maybe their corporate sales training includes being a complete a-hole.. Funny considering how unreliable and over-priced their bikes are. Not to mention taking your bike, Harley or not, to the Harley service dept, which works on banker's hours, is completely over-priced as well.

With regards to Woker, I appreciate your apology and I'm sorry if I offended you, but I am not sorry for saying what needs to be said about Harley Davidson and their decision to cancel Buell. Willie G is not a banker and I guarantee you he was the first one to agree to cancel Buell. He doesn't care about anything but Harley Davidson. He's an ass - hopefully I'll see him at California Bike Week this weekend in Pomona. They will definitely hear from me. I'm furious and I have a right to be. There is no justification for Harley to cancel Buell. Had they down-sized their HD offerings and cut Buell I'd probably be more accepting of their decision but to cut Buell and increase their offering is a slap in the face. As if Harley Davidson is down 85% through 3 qtrs entirely because of Buell & MV Agusta?! I'd bet they could offer 4 models of HD with customization & accessories all offered aftermarket or as optional add-ons, offer 4 Buell models, and 2 MV Agusta models and they'd pick up in sales - but they just don't care about that. they want to drop Buell, sell MV Agusta, and then petition Obama for a bail out when that fails because no one would believe that adding 9 new models would be a good thing when sales are down 85%.. It's a bait & switch, I guarantee it. [mad]

 

[buelladdicted]

The cuting of buell and MV was entirely based on protecting the mother ship for the investers.The only thing that is different about this and past decisions ,which worked by the way,is this is not the 80s .The(image) has an ever decreasing market.In the future,there will be less and less fans of easy rider,and future economic polarity will eliminate the supply of yuppies to afford them,mostly to piss off there parents.With this said,I think buell was there best shot at a future,and made a short term fix it decision,with long term problems.

 

[fishgutz]

Addict, I do believe you nailed in fewer words than a Haahvaahd Business school graduate would have.
The consensus does seem to be that Buell did not have much marketing support from HD. AMA racing coverage brought $million in indirect advertising. Even the blurbs with AMA import riders bad mouth Buell, it was "free" publicity. Buell found a privateer hole in the "production" rules big enough to drive an 1125RR through to more than a few winning circles. That started bringing more people calling and coming in to showrooms to see this new comer to the AMA winner's circle.
The dust bin of history is full of great products the fell victim to bad business decision.
In 1989 AT&T's marketing department killed what would have been the first Gigabit network system, at least a decade ahead of any competition simply because it was not developed by the systems division in NJ.
HD will hopefully realize the value of Buell before it is too late.

 

[wokor2wheel]

If Buell were to come back. there had better be some serious planning. We have seen some of the bikes from BMW and Aprilia that are going after WSB. New I-4 and V-4 motors.
If they do come back I hope they leave the tunning thing open. Not being able to play with the ECM really turns people off. Harly has their race tunner that allows us to go right into the ecm and adjust the opp. perameters. Run it on the dyno and adjust and your done. If not that way more of an open source format that lets more people play with it. Hell I would love to see a 72* V-4 with 1100 cc. pushing 190 Hp. at the wheel for WSB racing

 

[bardo688]

I for one and just bought an xb9s and was happy now i am torn apart that buell is going under. I love AMERICAN V-TWIN iam sad that harley has done this but i will remain loyal to american and never a ricer and at 16 an european bike way to expensive. i for one just think harley could have promoted buell more175 in a straight line isnt that fun after the 3rd of 4th time the twisties are a constant andreline rush and buells just stick out i love that

 

[okey]

I have just a couple of questions that maybe some of the more intune people than i can answer.I have read the reason of expansion that HD place in their "stunning" business plan.Their growth appears to be focused in two major countries where the average weight of a healthy male would be about 65 to 80 kilos female even less ( sorry for being metric im an aussie).These being India and China.I weigh 85kgs and am of strong build and i have to be aware when i take my mates softail off the stand.I have not been to these mentioned countries however i have seen getaway tv and they dont appear to have any kind of riding experience that HD brochures dictate.Hmmmm i can see an indian or chinese national aboard his "road king" cruising between tuk tuk ,scooter and bicycle on his way to nirvana at 15kms an hour ...ohhh joy and all the while he is sucking in all that delicious smog not to mention he is trying not to load the engine up cause their ****** fuel causes the bike to ping incessently.The other thing i have come to think about is what 2 countries can copy something faster than any other country in the world? goodby new dyna panniers and ohh is that a real heritage screen on your umm yamaharley? The asian population dont care about copyright at all.I watched a documentry on copying and callaway golf clubs bought out a new big bertha.It cost $1200 and within 3 days yup 3 days there was a copy in a chinese golf store for 300 bucks..sure quality was **** but most would be laid in tha back seat of a harley executives BMW or Mercedes to care.The other thing im curious about is how could Buell ever return when HD has raped the brand by selling bikes at half the price of what they were on sale for last month.tells my they are dusting their hands going good riddence and ohhh look over there.I am just concerned they will stop supply of parts or to compensate for the loss, jack every Buell part through the roof and make them unrealistically expensive.I would like to have every board member of HD over to my place where i would piss on the fish, wipe my knob around the rim of their champagne flute and gently fart in my hand offering them a cupcake for dessert.I am now sure HD does not stand for harley-davidson rather Humungus- *********.

 

[93fee]

Hello guys.

Yesterday had a long talk with my friend about Buell. We both have Buells so for us all this (cancelation of Buell) is kinda strange to hear. So from Europe it looks like those managers in HD decided that they can not sell Buell to whoever will wish to buy it, because (apart from engeneering & HD (even modified) engine) mostly Buell is an American Spirit thing. Can you imagine selling Zippo to SwedishMatch for example? Or Fender guitars to Yamaha Music Instrument? NO WAY. The same thing with Buell. We both sure that Buell was not so unproffitable as HD by itself. Buell is a very popular bike in Europe (Italy & Germany for exmpl) actually more than HD. But as said above, managers count total amount of profit never taking care how it's done. Anyhow, this story is a big ****, either a HUGE pr move (hardly believe in this)

BR
Buell riding Moscowite )

 

[93fee]

about spares - in case HD is a bancrupt - we all should forget about spares for our Buells. if not - for 10 years after production was stoped they are obliged to provide market with spares. it's an international trade rule. so hopefully we all Buellridingpeople will be able to get pads, belts & so on...

 

[fishgutz]

93, if I remember correctly, the XB fuel frame is made in Italy. The decision was made based on the high level of expertise the company has with welding and manufacturing aluminum frames. I don't know if this changed.
But the Buell strike me as a sort of "World Bike." because Eric sought out the best builder for his innovations and did not limit himself just to American companies.

 

[93fee]

fishqutz - yep, correct, suspension from japan, wheels from china, muffler originaly from sebring (austria), frame & all lights (triom) from Italy & so on )))
but all this built together & AROUND American engine. 1125 is not a true Buell for me because of rotax engine. Imagine Buell with Ducati engine. It won't be Buell. All the thing about Buell is that Eric made a superhandling bike around the engine that can not be fitted in sport bike. the sence of Buell is in combining uncombinable stuff )))

BR

 

[icepop77]

1125 is not a true Buell for me because of rotax engine.

A True Buell is whatever Erick Buell puts in it. It's not a HD, it's a Buell. So if Erick Buell decideds to get his engines from, say BMW for example, it's still a Buell. Simply put, HD couldn't produce what Erick wanted in his motorcycles so he went and got someone to build an engine the way he wanted.

 

[henri66]

Wow. Some great discussion going on here!

Just wanted to let you all know that I have a contract in my hands for a 2010 XB12Scg.
The price will include the 5000$ discount. Which is also 3400EURO in Europe.

So LeFox and other Europeans, gear up and check your dealers now!

I am very happy to get one soon. You will see pictures of it, including several mods.
The fact that I waited (or had to?) for a long time.
Helped by travelling a lot for my job and thus speaking several languages. I was able to read several forums from different countries.
It helped me a lot, and I now feel I know exactly how my bike should look like. And where to get the nice mods.
It is also great to see the big amount of passion for Buell. Which is clearly a bike of another kind.

I feel sad for the number of people who (have?) to part from their beloved bike due to the crisis or other reasons. Second hand value will surely drop for some short time. But I am sure it will recover very soon. As well as Eriks ideas and products.

I was lucky to buy the bike for the price of a second hand 5 year old one.
But I was allready prepared to buy the full price. Which was 16875 US$ here in Europe. And in some countries they are even more expensive!

 

[Sprinter187]

On the topic of dealer experiences, I had a very different one. I never bought the bike, but I did have some positives and some negatives. I was already a Buell owner and was looking to upgrade, if the price was right.

Positives
1. salesman called back, often
2. salesman knew the bike well
3. salesman was personable, and respectful

Negatives
1. salesman never asked if I was OK with the price before asking me to sign a bunch of stuff
2. salesman sent me on a tour of the dealership that I had zero interest in taking (but I found out where to drive my new bike in for its $500 oil change)
3. salesman referred to me as the guy that had just bought a Buell, before I agreed to it (and I said I was simply looking from the very minute I arrived)
4. salesman wasted at least 1hour of my time (see above tour) while I had clearly stated I was in no interest of buying a bike that day (and I finally just left)
5. salesman left me a voicemail saying how much my payment would be, instead of what the total sale price was and what the best interest rate he could offer was (as I described he would be competing against my credit union)
6. service department quoted my trade in, about where I expected, but then marked off a lot in labor and service, which I knew was going to happen... BUT the quote was definitely not in my favor, for example, if you are going to do a fork seal AND brake pads, do you really think that full labor is fair for both? I mean the caliper has to come off to do the fork seal. (not to mention I refuse to give a skilled tech 5.5hours to change oil and plugs, or $30 for "shop supplies"... you'll wash your hands on someone else's dime)

End result, I never called back. Bought elsewhere. #5 was actually the real downer for me, because it showed that the salesman wasn't actually interested in selling the bike or fulfilling my request, which was price shopping. Profit is the key, and I respect that... BUT knowing now what the dealer invoice is on the bike that I was looking at, and how many of them the dealer had in stock with almost no interested buyers... I'm a little upset that my requests weren't taken more seriously.

Now in the defense of the dealer, it was painfully obvious that the "dealer experience" was catered to the typical yuppie HOG member. Everything was about what clothes you're gonna buy to go with you bike, and what accessories can we get you, and will you pay us $85/hour to install some chrome wizbangs? My answer was always a blank stare and a simple... no. That's not their fault, its the fault of the little checklist that someone had in place for how to ring more money out of the yuppie-hog, while introducing them to all of their new friends at the dealer (I mean just imagine all the other new friends you'll find by owning a motorcycle, because that's why you bought a bike, right?)

DO I blame HD?? No, it's a dog eat dog world out there and money makes the world go round. HD saved themselves with the new exclusive image that can be bought for more money than it's worth. That worked up until the economy tanked, false demand for a product is the best way to drive prices and profit up. Remember when there were waiting lists for harleys?

I just left with the overwhelming feeling that I was nearly a cash cow for this dealer, and that hurt my pride more than anything. Now, that said, I am cheap, I use the living crap out of my motorcycles and I expect others to expect that of me... but not take advantage of it. $500+ and 5.5hours for plugs and an oil change? I did it myself in 2hours, with a primary adjustment, and spent $50 on parts. I bargan shop, and I'm not afraid to get dirty, but when undermining my bargain shopping is a tactic of the dealer I'm not impressed.

TO me its been obvious all along that Buell doesn't fit the HD business model, especially when my tour took me to the "accessories guy" so we could stare at each other and a $50 battery tender for a couple of minutes, since there wasnt 500pages of chrome to peddle on me. Maybe the new low prices will drive the used market down for a while so that cheap-***** like me can pick up a nice used bike from someone that always wants the latest new thing. IN the meantime I'll go back to riding the crap out of my Buell as I enjoy that a lot more than sitting in dealerships and drinking free coffee and buying clothing accessories. Have fun guys, enjoy the bikes while they last, or at least while your love for them does.

 

[bardo688]

Man you sound like my dad haha but i agree with ya