almost mugged and bike stolen

[Zeroflat24]

Scary **** man. Glad your ok. Defiantly get a concealed weapons permit when your old enough!

 

[vroom]

I think you handled the situation well. Pulling a gun on someone who likely also has a gun is a surefire way to get your ass shot. In fact, people who carry are more likely to be shot and killed than people who don't.

Stay safe.

 

[CrazyTexan]

Stick a ninja sword down your jacket like Blade....Nobody messes with a guy with a sword handle comming out of his jacket.

Joking aside, good idea on taking them on a goose Chase and not fleeing home.

I carry, I wouldn't pull a gun on someone stealing my bike. but 3 ppl getting out of a jeep and kicking my ass....that's a different story.

 

[Lesley]

Pulling a gun on someone who likely also has a gun is a surefire way to get your ass shot. In fact, people who carry are more likely to be shot and killed than people who don't.

[up] rep point from me to vroom. Very very very good response.

I wouldn't pull a gun on someone stealing my bike

[up] Good good good.

 

[theoctopus]

Thank god there are some users here who understand that escalating the situation by drawing a firearm would probably have been a very, very poor idea. At the end of the day, a motorcycle isn't worth risking yours or taking a life. I'm really glad that you got away safely, but I can almost guarantee that someone would have been hurt had you stopped and drawn a firearm. You made the right choice (regardless of whether you were concealed carrying or not) by pursuing the non-violent approach as long as you possibly could.

Every time one of my friends who is an avid gun owner tells me that they would pull a gun on a bike thief, it makes me sad. A motorcycle, at the end of the day, is just an inanimate object. As much emotion as we attach to our relationships with these objects, there will always be other motorcycles. I keep a loaded shotgun in my closet (buckshot followed by slugs) because I live in a neighborhood that has a number of gangs, and fall asleep to the sound of sirens and gun shots every night. I wouldn't hesitate to use my training to draw the firearm if someone were threatening the safety of my wife or my dogs, but I certainly wouldn't draw it on someone who is trying to steal my motorcycle. That's what the police and insurance are for.

 

[Lesley]

Thank god there are some users here who understand that escalating the situation by drawing a firearm would probably have been a very, very poor idea.

Preach it from the rooftops. Preach on brother preach on.

 

[GAXB9R]

Just a question? Now if you felt in danger for your life because 4 hoodlums are about to woop that ass would you not protect yourself? I feel that is what most were talking about. Yeah the bike is important, but these 4 guys were chasing him. I would hate to think what they would have done to him if he had been caught by them. Obviously they weren't just after the bike they were ready to do some bad ****. I agree 100% that it's not worth jail time over a damn bike. But if someone is "chasing" me that's a different story. Ride safe buellers.

 

[theoctopus]

The problem is that most people who do concealed carry have never completed any real training in operating their firearm under stress, which is often accompanied by training in how to assess a situation and determine the severity of the potential outcome should a firearm be drawn or not drawn. In many cases, fear or anger takes over, and what could have been handled without escalation ends poorly because an uneducated or emotional decision was made. In short, it's hard to say whether this situation warranted escalation, because I was not there and I do not know the intentions of these individuals.

If the attempt at an escape on motorcycle had failed (and again, I am very, very glad that it didn't), I probably would have left the motorcycle behind and fled on foot. Had I been pursued, which would clarify that the intention of those individuals was to hurt me, then, and only then, would I have drawn a concealed firearm to protect myself. In this case, I would have ascertained that the motorcycle was not the target, that I needed to protect myself at reasonable cost, and I would have drawn the individuals away from their vehicle, limiting their ability to retrieve any hidden weapons or pursue me at a high rate of speed.

 

[GAXB9R]

^^^^thats what I was getting at. I agree 100%.

 

[xtreme]

Good call octopus, I also have a concealed carry but Maryland sucks so I can't carry here. Either way I would only draw if I knew I was going to need to use it. Glade your ok but you need to file a police report for sure!

 

[plasticgunz]

"Pulling a gun on someone who likely also has a gun is a surefire way to get your ass shot. In fact, people who carry are more likely to be shot and killed than people who don't."

Cite?

 

[agfish18]

Did you ever think that maybe you dropped something and they were trying to stop you to give it back??

I know, highly unlikely. I think you did the right thing leading them away from your house, but keep an eye out for them again... the guy you kicked is probably pissed.

 

[theoctopus]

Cite?

I'm glad someone is as interested in the primary research as I am. While I'm not the one who made the claim, here's a link to some research that supports the assertion. Although I do have some questions about the experimental design, the American Journal of Public Health is a hefty, peer-reviewed journal that only publishes high quality research, for what it's worth.

 

[vroom]

Edit:
Octo answered it better than I did.

 

[user_deleted]

rshepler: i'm sure this topic has been beat to death by now but as a retired PA. State Police detective a few things to consider: a concealed weapon and a permit to carry same is only as good as the training the carrier has received with that weapon. if you go that route i beg you to get trained and trained properly on the weapon and practice with it at a shooting range. regarding the punk ass ******* in the jeep...if you have the time and date, location, good description of the jeep(color-wheels-top on or off-rollbar-anything and everything) and any sort of occupants/driver description call your local PD and speak with either a detective or traffic sergeant. i'm sure one or more of them will know this vehicle and who the ********** is that owns it. let them try and pursue it for you and be sure to tell them you will be happy to testify if they make an arrest and that you feared for your life. that makes a big difference. hope that helps sir and apologies for the language here if i offended you or anybody else. this sort of crap pisses me off.

 

[Rhino1]

Octo,

I grew up in East LA (I think you live nearby?)--I would never assume that three homeboys jumping out of their car at me or chasing me will just take my bike, nor will I leave my fate at their mercy, hoping that they are benevolent or have a change of heart and ask for my bike nicely. We both know how car jackings go. We both know how the gangs and thugs around here roll. Violence is their game. And most of their victims are unarmed.

I have been in situations were I've had to " escape" on my bike in years past (bikes are unmatched in that ability...). The OP did exactly right in that respect, and he used sound tactics by not stopping immediately in front of his house. But to state that we should be sheep and are better off unarmed or to rely soley on the police to defend/protect us? Or upon the benevolence of our attackers? Well, that's a topic for another post that can be debated ad nauseum.

It is anyone's right to decide to turn and flee. But I believe it an inane right to stand and defend as well. They weren't stealing his motorcycle from a garage or shed. They appeared to intend to forcibly remove it from his possession. Based on what I know, four vatos getting out of their car and coming my way would more than imply that. If I could get away, I would. If I couldn't, I would be prepared to defend myself. If any of those guys was a repeat offender with a couple of strikes, or decided that they didn't want to go to jail, or just didn't want a witness, it wouldn't take a big stretch to see that I might be in grave danger. In California, for most average Joe's, that would be a sh*tty proposition. California does not trust it's law abiding citizens with the right to defend themselves with firearms. In Washington, I'd be in a much better position to get back home to my family...

And to the other poster, its presumptuous to say that most people with CPL's or CCW's are not properly trained ("but I am")--how do you know? What exactly is proper training to shoot under stress? Military training? Patrolling Central or Hollenbeck division? Combat experience in Fallujah? Competitive shooting? That's an arrogant statement that is rather demeaning and self-righteous. I'd invite you to one of our 3-gun shoots, but your skills might be too great for out humble little group...

It's okay to "turn and burn"--that's a viable defense. But when cornered and there is no option, it is my opinion that its ok to meet a threat of life threatening violence with deadly force.

 

[plasticgunz]

So, vroom's article links to octopus's study which doesn't differentiate between the law-abiding gun owner and any Philly gang banger. The study could just as easily support the statement, and likely more accurately, "gang bangers with guns tend to shoot each other". Regardless, you put what value you want on your life and the material possessions you spend your life earning. To me the time I spend, my life, earning my possessions is exactly that, my life. I don't get a do over on any day, I don't get that time back, I don't get my life back. It is certainly worth defending.

 

[Zeroflat24]

Octo,

I grew up in East LA (I think you live nearby?)--I would never assume that three homeboys jumping out of their car at me or chasing me will just take my bike, nor will I leave my fate at their mercy, hoping that they are benevolent or have a change of heart and ask for my bike nicely. We both know how car jackings go. We both know how the gangs and thugs around here roll. Violence is their game. And most of their victims are unarmed.

I have been in situations were I've had to " escape" on my bike in years past (bikes are unmatched in that ability...). The OP did exactly right in that respect, and he used sound tactics by not stopping immediately in front of his house. But to state that we should be sheep and are better off unarmed or to rely soley on the police to defend/protect us? Or upon the benevolence of our attackers? Well, that's a topic for another post that can be debated ad nauseum.

It is anyone's right to decide to turn and flee. But I believe it an inane right to stand and defend as well. They weren't stealing his motorcycle from a garage or shed. They appeared to intend to forcibly remove it from his possession. Based on what I know, four vatos getting out of their car and coming my way would more than imply that. If I could get away, I would. If I couldn't, I would be prepared to defend myself. If any of those guys was a repeat offender with a couple of strikes, or decided that they didn't want to go to jail, or just didn't want a witness, it wouldn't take a big stretch to see that I might be in grave danger. In California, for most average Joe's, that would be a sh*tty proposition. California does not trust it's law abiding citizens with the right to defend themselves with firearms. In Washington, I'd be in a much better position to get back home to my family...

And to the other poster, its presumptuous to say that most people with CPL's or CCW's are not properly trained ("but I am")--how do you know? What exactly is proper training to shoot under stress? Military training? Patrolling Central or Hollenbeck division? Combat experience in Fallujah? Competitive shooting? That's an arrogant statement that is rather demeaning and self-righteous. I'd invite you to one of our 3-gun shoots, but your skills might be too great for out humble little group...

It's okay to "turn and burn"--that's a viable defense. But when cornered and there is no option, it is my opinion that its ok to meet a threat of life threatening violence with deadly force.

^ All of this [up]

 

[rshepler217]

lunaticfringe: i do agree with you 100%. my father is an retired shiriff from new york and we would go shooting just about every weekend and he started me at 13 and my first handgun at 16. and i have been trained by the marines as well. all ready to go just waiting to deploy after i graduate college. i believe you should have to go through a course for training before you can even own a handgun. im not saying i would carry one on me every time i ride. i do not feel it nessicary to do so because this was certianly not the time to draw one but had they seen one somewhere on my body maybe they would not have even tried. sometimes id rather have one and not need it as oposed to need one and not have it. but i dont have to worry about that right now because i cant even own one, ill just work on my escape routes

 

[bigrodge8]

In MS you may use a firearm or deadly force to:
Prevent a felony
Prevent an assault or bodily harm upon yourself or another person
In the apprehension of a fugitive or under the order of a law enforcement officer.
You have sufficient reason to believe your life or safety is in danger ie: multiple assailants attempting to do someone harm in order to take possession of the victims property. Of course the castle doctrine primarily applies to the home and one vehicle.


Theoctopus is hitting on something tho, I think folks should have to undergo training in order to carry concealed. And not just crap training either, they should have to maintain a certain score in a killhouse or something of the like. Here in MS we have the "castle doctrine" which pretty much states that one has the right to defend ones self with a firearm, and that person does not have to evade the situation, rather one can neutralize the threat if cause to believe that harm or a felonious act is going to be carried out on ones person, or someone else.